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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: July 19 2015 at 13:21

infocat wrote:

Hmm, I went to Catholic Church for the first 18 years of my life (and not a once in the 28 years since then), but I've never heard any of that...

The one thing I do greatly respect the Catholic Church for over the other Christian religions is the focus on good works, rather than just "faith alone". I don't believe in heaven, but if such a thing existed and simple "yes I believe it" being the one thing to get you there, well it just irks me!

That's the problem of the Catholic Church

Many people don't hate the Catholic Faith, they hate what they believe of the Catholic Church

I don't know if for some kind of arrogance because we are almost twice all the other Christian religions, cults and sects together or because the complexity and length of our doctrine, we don't inform people our own beliefs

But a couple photos speak more than words

But if you want to read about our real beliefs (Won't make you Catholic, not trying to convert you), you can read

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

N° 15 and 16

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 19 2015 at 13:27

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Posted: July 19 2015 at 08:47

omphaloskepsis wrote:

I don't mind the Christian lyrics. I do mind that Neal's lyrics are cliché. I can tune out the lyrics if the music mesmerized me.

The deal breaker for me is- Each time I audition one of Neal's albums, I get excited about the music only to find myself bored after 5-10 minutes. Like an earlier poster said, " I can't put my finger on what's wrong with the music." So I put Spock's Bread V on and enjoy.

Another thing- I wish Neal didn't sing lead on so many Transatlantic songs.

Totally agree. It's been ages since I've heard Neal Morse, and as someone somewhere between agnostic and theist, I admire he's doing it. However, I often simply don't like his lyrics and it's the same problem I have with musical protesters (even Bob Dylan at times), when it gets too bogged down in the subject and loses its substance/meaning. Even though progressive music is to do with bringing in new influences, I do think there's another way that he could get across his message that would be more engaging (for me at least). Anyway, really not a fan of the guy, lyrically and musically, and I don't think I've ever even made it through a whole album of his Confused

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Posted: July 19 2015 at 07:48

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

FALSE

We Catholics believe that salvation is for everybody, despite their religion

a) Non Catholic Christians

Dogmatic Constitution of the Catholic Church - Lumen Gentium

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal.

b) Jewish

16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.

c) Moslems

But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.

d) Non Christians

Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.

e) Atheists

Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.

Better get informed.

Hmm, I went to Catholic Church for the first 18 years of my life (and not a once in the 28 years since then), but I've never heard any of that...

The one thing I do greatly respect the Catholic Church for over the other Christian religions is the focus on good works, rather than just "faith alone". I don't believe in heaven, but if such a thing existed and simple "yes I believe it" being the one thing to get you there, well it just irks me!

--
Frank Swarbrick
Belief is not Truth.

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Posted: July 18 2015 at 22:27

t d wombat wrote:

I confess that while I knew that the Catholic church is somewhat easier on sinners than the prodos I didn't know they were that easy. Seems strange but you are correct in that I guess I should get informed.

The Catholic Church is not easier on sins, but being from a different faith is not a sin

t d wombat wrote:

My point all along has been that I reckon you are overly sensitive to what Morse said with the addenda that I think it's a bit different attacking the church to attacking the deity. I still think that.

Read the thread, I'm not the only one

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Posted: July 18 2015 at 22:22

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

If Morse said "All the atheists are sons of a harlot", you would be protesting

The difference between us, is that I would be protesting with you.

We Catholics believe that salvation is for everybody, despite their religion

Better get informed.

Nah. He's free to throw as many insults as he likes. Water off a duck's back.

I confess that while I knew that the Catholic church is somewhat easier on sinners than the prodos I didn't know they were that easy. Seems strange but you are correct in that I guess I should get informed.

Seems like a get out of jail free card.

My point all along has been that I reckon you are overly sensitive to what Morse said with the addenda that I think it's a bit different attacking the church to attacking the deity. I still think that.

Oh well, I'll go back to meek me .... be satisfied with inheriting the earth. Smile

Andrew B

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Posted: July 18 2015 at 19:22

The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

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Posted: July 18 2015 at 19:21

Andy Latimer is a great vocalist

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Posted: July 18 2015 at 19:11

goddamn right Ivan. Clap

Well said... I'm not a Catholic.. I'm not even a member of any church. More of a half assed Hindu. Love the religion.. believe in what it preaches.. just not discplined enough to practice it. Any attack on ANY religion has no place.. in civil society... but especially...

but damnit... leave relgion where it belongs..private discussions between friends and willing debators... its place is NOT in music. Especially prog...

that is the cardinal sin if you will Morse committed.. just of course made worse by framing in sh*tty music and with Latimeresque kind of awful vocals

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Posted: July 18 2015 at 19:05

t d wombat wrote:

The silly thing is that Ivan is whining about insults being hurled at the church, that somehow Morse is trampling on his beliefs. Big deal. Believers are content to tell me that I'll spend eternity as Satan's bum boy because I don't accept their sky pixie, which seems somewhat harsher than merely accusing the RC church of being corrupt. Religious organisations are nowt more than earthly institutions and tax shelters created by man to propigate a set of beliefs that may or may not have some historical relevence or even truth behind them. They may or may not reflect the views of the original figurehead be that e.g Jesus or Mohammed or Yhwh nay not even the Flying Spaghetti Monster in all his noodley greatness.

Just to end

Morse can believe whatever he wants, that's not my problem, but offending with direct insults is not right.

If you're an atheist, good for you, it's a respectable position that I don't share.

If Morse said "All the atheists are sons of a harlot", you would be protesting

The difference between us, is that I would be protesting with you.

t d wombat wrote:

That the church (any church) turns around and creates its own versions of events and manages to convince hordes of other folk that they are the way to salvation in no way puts them above criticism. If Morse is wrong then fine, give it to him with all guns blazing but please, enough of the oh woe is me, you are trampling on my beliefs nonsense.

FALSE

We Catholics believe that salvation is for everybody, despite their religion

a) Non Catholic Christians

Dogmatic Constitution of the Catholic Church - Lumen Gentium

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal.

b) Jewish

16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.

c) Moslems

But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.

d) Non Christians

Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.

e) Atheists

Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.

Better get informed.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 18 2015 at 19:14

t d wombat View Drop Down

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Posted: July 18 2015 at 18:31

The silly thing is that Ivan is whining about insults being hurled at the church, that somehow Morse is trampling on his beliefs. Big deal. Believers are content to tell me that I'll spend eternity as Satan's bum boy because I don't accept their sky pixie, which seems somewhat harsher than merely accusing the RC church of being corrupt. Religious organisations are nowt more than earthly institutions and tax shelters created by man to propigate a set of beliefs that may or may not have some historical relevence or even truth behind them. They may or may not reflect the views of the original figurehead be that e.g Jesus or Mohammed or Yhwh nay not even the Flying Spaghetti Monster in all his noodley greatness.

That the church (any church) turns around and creates its own versions of events and manages to convince hordes of other folk that they are the way to salvation in no way puts them above criticism. If Morse is wrong then fine, give it to him with all guns blazing but please, enough of the oh woe is me, you are trampling on my beliefs nonsense.

(Yeah I know but yesterday I woke up the meeker me. Today, not so much. Smile

)

Edited by t d wombat - July 18 2015 at 18:37

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Posted: July 18 2015 at 12:06

AlanB wrote:

For the record, Ivan, I never said that I agree with the Revelation 12 interpretation, I just made the point that this is where Neal Morse is coming from, and explains why he uses the language of Revelation in his lyrics.

I still don't see any hatred for the MODERN DAY Roman Catholic Church in the lyrics. For the medieval church and its practices, yes, but hatred is a strong word to describe someone who disagrees with some of your church's doctrines.

You don't see it, because you agree with him

As an Evangelical Protestant I obviously share Morse's world view,

But this

If you think the whore is only history
Are there those who teach her lies?
Wherever they believe what came out from her
The same spirit is still alive

Is about today's Church

Also this

Not just from the mother but the daughters of the harlot
Everything that comes from her it must be left behind
Her rituals and teaching smells of death and bloody scarlet
Like Martin did before us let the scripture be our guide

If I said something like this about your church,you would be caling me a bigot

AlanB wrote:

One of the reasons I like the album so much is the powerful lyrics. "In the name of God you must die, all that's not our truth is a lie" could equally apply to groups like ISIS today, and the imagery of deluded people walking into Hell when they've been told they're going to Heaven is a very strong one.

But he's not talking about a FUNDAMENTALIST GOVERNMENT, he's talking about a church

AlanB wrote:

Sorry but I think you're over reacting a bit

Of course, if you agree with him, it's obvious

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: July 18 2015 at 11:22

Lowend wrote:

¿

I agree. He is loving this. Theology fascinates him. It has made me agnostic. We're all entitled to our opinions and beliefs or lack there of. Now, having said that, I still admire Neal's courage for putting his opinion out there

after seeing the intense backlash this thred has started. I had no idea it would lead to this. I had no idea someone would turn this into a hate dialog. We have too much of that in the world today already and I feel most of it is due to religion. Again, my opinion and nothing more.

I didn't tuned this into a hate dialogue, Neal Morse did it when he called the church of 1,300 million people a harlot, our doctrines bloody and our sains Roman gods

If you can't see that, well I can't do anything, even Protestant pastors (Who are not blinded by fatacism) here notice it.

It should be obvious for everybody, because it's more than evident

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Posted: July 18 2015 at 10:11

t d wombat wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Didn't wanted to be dragged here, but well, history and Theology fascinate me.

Yes you did. Admit it man, you are loving this. Smile

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Posted: July 18 2015 at 02:00

For the record, Ivan, I never said that I agree with the Revelation 12 interpretation, I just made the point that this is where Neal Morse is coming from, and explains why he uses the language of Revelation in his lyrics.

One of the reasons I like the album so much is the powerful lyrics. "In the name of God you must die, all that's not our truth is a lie" could equally apply to groups like ISIS today, and the imagery of deluded people walking into Hell when they've been told they're going to Heaven is a very strong one.

Sorry but I think you're over reacting a bit

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Posted: July 18 2015 at 01:05

micky wrote:

YES!!! blue and red font.. Clap

Reminds me that I once meant to have..

I Heart

Ivan

tattooed on my ass cheek...

Would that have made it the joke of your butt ?

Andrew B

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Posted: July 17 2015 at 20:23

timothy leary wrote:

What should I be Knowing? I never said these guys were infallible in their personal lives, obviously. Do you seriously think God ever intended to give any of these popes infallibility on Catholic church Doctrine. A yes or no will suffice. I do not need a lecture in red and blue. Just yes or no?

Of course, one thing is independent of the other, they may be sinners but I don't believe they have created any dogma or wrote an encyclical document

They can sin in their personal lives, but this doesn't mean they are unable to speak about doctrine with the assistance of God, and none of them change a single paragraph of our doctrine

It's strange, but no anti-pope has changed a word of our beliefs.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 17 2015 at 20:58

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Posted: July 17 2015 at 19:09

YES!!! blue and red font.. Clap

Reminds me that I once meant to have..

I Heart

Ivan

tattooed on my ass cheek...

Edited by micky - July 17 2015 at 19:11

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Posted: July 17 2015 at 18:59

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

timothy leary wrote:

The "infallible" role models

Pope Stephen VI (896–897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber.^[1]
Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.
Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045, 1047–1048), who "sold" the Papacy
Pope Boniface VIII (1294–1303), who is lampooned in Dante's Divine Comedy
Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured.^[2]
Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503), a Borgia, who was guilty of nepotism and whose unattended corpse swelled until it could barely fit in a coffin.^[3]
Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors' reserves on a single ceremony^[4]
Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), also a Medici, whose power-politicking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked.

A pope is infallible

ONLY IN MATTERS OF FAITH AND CHRISTIAN MORAL DOCTRINE AND WHEN SPEAKING EX CATHEDRA TO EACH AND EVERY CATHOLIC IN THE WORLD

Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church that states that, in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error "When, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church.

But that's not all, he must speak Ex Cathedra:

According to the teaching of the First Vatican Council and Catholic tradition, the conditions required for ex cathedra papal teaching are as follows:

"the Roman Pontiff"
"speaks ex cathedra" ("that is, when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority....")
"he defines"
"that a doctrine concerning faith or morals"
"must be held by the whole Church"

For a teaching by a pope or ecumenical council to be recognized as infallible, the teaching must be:

A decision of the supreme teaching authority of the Church (pope or College of Bishops)
Concern a doctrine of faith or morals
Bind the universal Church
Be proposed as something to hold firmly and immutably

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Ex_cathedra

In their personal lives, they are as fallible as everybody else in the whole planet.

If Pope Francis tells you to bet on San Lorenzo de Almagro for the Libertadores Cup (He's a fan of the club), don't recommend you to put money, because the team sucks lately and his opinion is not protected by infallibility.

They can be sinners (And all humans are) and they can commit the same mistakes as us

Why do people speak without knowing

What should I be Knowing? I never said these guys were infallible in their personal lives, obviously. Do you seriously think God ever intended to give any of these popes infallibility on Catholic church Doctrine. A yes or no will suffice. I do not need a lecture in red and blue. Just yes or no?

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Posted: July 17 2015 at 18:06

Lowend wrote:

I like Neal Morse. I think he writes good music. I have noticed a few reviews which have been critical of his work due to his preaching. As an agnostic, you'd think that would bother me but it doesn't. I actually admire him for having the courage to put it out there even though I may not share his views. I don't think that should detract from his music. It's just his opinion. I can understand not liking his music but I can't understand not liking it because of the lyrics. My main focus in prog is the compostion and instrumentation. Let the dialog begin .......

Well... I actively 'resigned' from the catholic church 2 years ago. Took me four letters to get it confirmed, but I did it in the end. I had my reasons, which are not relevant here, but they did lead me to not listening to Neal Morse - I was away from the preaching, and didn't feel like getting it back.

Today, at the Night of the Prog festival, I was blown away by the energy of his music and performance. That made me change my mind - I am going to get at least one of his albums, and I'll just ignore the lyrics (which would be first for me).

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Posted: July 17 2015 at 17:51

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Didn't wanted to be dragged here, but well, history and Theology fascinate me.

Yes you did. Admit it man, you are loving this. Smile

Andrew B

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