Serialism in rock?

Even punks experimented with serialism...

Edited by Svetonio - September 27 2015 at 23:15

I don't see the big deal. As Dean was saying, I don't think I could tell if someone was using that 12 tone method. Lots of Avant Rock is atonal. Any time you use a symmetrical scale (e.g. whole/half diminished, 9 note augmented), you either don't have a root note or you have lots and lots of root notes to a point where it doesn't really matter anymore what you call a root note. Twelve tones are of course all the notes available and what is referred to as the chromatic scale, and just another very extreme version of a symmetrical scale, so I'm really not sure I would be able to tell the difference between some using the 12 tone method versus any other application of the chromatic scale. Someone should do some fact checking because I thought it was just a myth that the 12 tone method required all the notes be played before repeating, but I've been wrong before.

There are lots of rock pieces without a tonal centre but the only piece I know that uses the 12-tone method is Erk Gah by Henry Cow. I suppose a method in which all melodies are derived from a single sequence of all 12 notes and thus strictly notated, doesn't lend itself naturally to rock, even progressive rock. I think U-totem may have used some 12-tone techniques.

It's easier to find serial killer in rock than serialism.

Edited by SteveG - September 23 2015 at 10:14

Dean wrote: I'm not sure I'd be able to recognise 12-tone serialism with a rock beat if it bit me on the arse. For example Henry Cow's Ruins is apparently based upon the Fibonacci series but you'd be hard pressed to figure that out just by listening to it. Similarly I'm not sure I would recognise atonality if it's done well as it just means it lacks a tonal centre.

Good Point.

I'm not sure I'd be able to recognise 12-tone serialism with a rock beat if it bit me on the arse. For example Henry Cow's Ruins is apparently based upon the Fibonacci series but you'd be hard pressed to figure that out just by listening to it.

Similarly I'm not sure I would recognise atonality if it's done well as it just means it lacks a tonal centre.

Polymorphia wrote: Best example I can think of is Henry Cow's "Ruins." Few rock songs are actually serialist, just like few rock songs are actually atonal, even when many claim otherwise.

Yes, Tim Hodgkinson in particular was really into serialism, I think a number of his compositions incorporated it, but in general I too am hard pressed to think of prog rock compositions that are explicitly composed using the twelve-tone technique.

Best example I can think of is Henry Cow's "Ruins." Few rock songs are actually serialist, just like few rock songs are actually atonal, even when many claim otherwise. 

WeepingElf wrote: ProgBob wrote: I don't think Terry Riley was an exponent of serialism - minimalism is closer to the mark I think. Yes.  Riley is a minimalist, not a serialist.

I thought Reilly started as serialist and switched to minimalism as a kind of rejection to serialism. Oh, well.