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Joined: July 01 2004
Location: CA
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Points: 15011
Posted: October 12 2015 at 10:47
When it comes to "borrowing" or appropriating others composers' works, Emerson is king. Some of the composers are credited, while the following are not:
"Pathetique", Symphony No. 6 by Tchaikovsky, credited.
"Hang on to a Dream", from "How Can We Hang on to a Dream?" by Tim Hardin, credited, quoting (during a live recording) "Summertime", from Porgy and Bess by George Gershwin, uncredited.
"The Barbarian", based on Allegro barbaro, Sz. 49, BB 63 by Béla Bartók, uncredited on US release of Emerson Lake & Palmer (credited on the British Manticore re-pressing of the original LP, on the back cover of the LP jacket).
"Knife Edge", based on Sinfonietta by Leoš Janáček, uncredited on US release (credited on the British Manticore re-pressing of the original LP, on the back cover of the LP jacket); middle section based on the Allemande from French Suites No. 1 in D minor, by J.S. Bach, uncredited.
"The Only Way (Hymn)", incorporating (in the song's introduction and bridge) J.S. Bach's 'Organ Toccata in F and Prelude VI from Book I of the Well-Tempered Clavier', credited on Tarkus.
"Blues Variation" from Pictures at an Exhibition also contains an uncredited quote of the 'head' of Bill Evans' minor blues piece "Interplay" (1:52), and an uncredited quote of "Miles Davis'" "Walkin'" (2:44), during Keith Emerson's Hammond Organ solo.
With Emerson, Lake & Powell, the main theme to "Touch & Go" is identical to the English folk song "Lovely Joan", better known as the counterpoint tune in Ralph Vaughan Williams Fantasia on Greensleeves Not credited.[18]
With Emerson, Lake & Powell, "Mars" is based on the homonym movement of the suite The Planets, by Gustav Holst
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19535
Posted: October 11 2015 at 23:23
TODDLER wrote:
You are right and this was obviously in bad taste on Fripp's behalf. I mean just because he's Fripp..people will come up with the defense for him in a subtle, intellectual way which is always , (9 hundred and 99 times out of a thousand), a huge case of "what if's" . I just have a problem being convinced that Fripp himself would ever do something like this. Supposedly he adapted something from Bartok music written for string quartet on Larks, (although Bartok is not receiving credit), perhaps it is less revealing unlike "Devil's Triangle" being the obvious. It's really strange that someone would think in their own mind...that they could get away with replacing the original composers name with their own. Personally...I would have felt strange and awkward if I were to do something like this. I wouldn't be able to live with it and because of the principal alone. Is their some sort of Holst estate maintaining the protection for his music or is there some completely pointless law that applies the choice for people to exploit the options of an item being public domain. In otherwords, "I can borrow ...just to borrow for an extended time, credit my name, etc. So it's totally disgraceful because you are taking someone else's music , written in a different century ...and you're not willing to be honest and correct anyone who asks if you wrote it and it becomes accepted as a formality within the business. ????
Well, he's not the only one, Wakeman clearly ripped In In the Hall of the Mountain King by Grieg and if I'm not wrong only credited him after he was warned.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 11 2015 at 23:24
Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6756
Posted: October 11 2015 at 15:40
TODDLER wrote:
cstack3 wrote:
HackettFan wrote:
King Crimson's In the Wake of Poseidon is a rip off of King Crimson's In the Court of the Crimson King. Does that count?
Well, not nearly as much as Bob's rip-off of Gustav Holst's "Mars, the Bringer of War" for his own song "The Devil's Triangle"!
King Crimson performed a rock arrangement of "Mars" live in 1969.[citation needed] This arrangement was issued on their second LP, In the Wake of Poseidon, although for copyright reasons it was renamed "The Devil's Triangle" and Robert Fripp claimed authorship, with Holst receiving no composer credit.
You are right and this was obviously in bad taste on Fripp's behalf. I mean just because he's Fripp..people will come up with the defense for him in a subtle, intellectual way which is always , (9 hundred and 99 times out of a thousand), a huge case of "what if's" . I just have a problem being convinced that Fripp himself would ever do something like this. Supposedly he adapted something from Bartok music written for string quartet on Larks, (although Bartok is not receiving credit), perhaps it is less revealing unlike "Devil's Triangle" being the obvious. It's really strange that someone would think in their own mind...that they could get away with replacing the original composers name with their own. Personally...I would have felt strange and awkward if I were to do something like this. I wouldn't be able to live with it and because of the principal alone. Is their some sort of Holst estate maintaining the protection for his music or is there some completely pointless law that applies the choice for people to exploit the options of an item being public domain. In otherwords, "I can borrow ...just to borrow for an extended time, credit my name, etc. So it's totally disgraceful because you are taking someone else's music , written in a different century ...and you're not willing to be honest and correct anyone who asks if you wrote it and it becomes accepted as a formality within the business. ????
I've read in numerous places where the estate of Gustav Holst sued Fripp over his unauthorized use of "Mars," and also read that they sued the Japanese electronic genius Tomita for his re-recording of "The Planets." It might be urban legend, but it is a curious episode, considering how protective Fripp has been of his own music!
I did mention Michael Garrison and Michael Hoenig on the first page I consider Garrison one of those who put his own stamp on the style with his classical training. However, Hoenig's Departure from the Northern Wasteland copies TD's style down to a "T" (and a "D"!).
Sorry my bad - must've slipped me.
Garrison did infuse the classic TD sound with his classical key skills but not enough to sound original imo. To me it sounds like TD with a guest. Totally agree on Hoenig's Wasteland - an album that never grabbed me much. It kinda irritates me that he would make a carbon copy of Stratosfear instead of extrapolating on his own style. -A style that countered the smooth guitar work in Agitation Free. He sounded dangerous and edgy on those records. I would've loved to hear an album where he took that 'nerve' further.
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
Joined: July 01 2004
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 15011
Posted: October 11 2015 at 13:10
Replayer wrote:
Guldbamsen wrote:
Nobody's mentioned any TD fetichists yet.
I did mention Michael Garrison and Michael Hoenig on the first page I consider Garrison one of those who put his own stamp on the style with his classical training. However, Hoenig's Departure from the Northern Wasteland copies TD's style down to a "T" (and a "D"!).
Mark Shreeve, as well. TD never recorded anything quite like Legion or Crash Head.
Hoenig was briefly in TD as a touring member, and he was in Agitation Free. Both bands knew of each other. It was only logical that he record a good ol' Berlin School album (and a great one, at that).
Joined: November 04 2013
Location: United States
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Points: 356
Posted: October 11 2015 at 13:07
Guldbamsen wrote:
Nobody's mentioned any TD fetichists yet.
I did mention Michael Garrison and Michael Hoenig on the first page I consider Garrison one of those who put his own stamp on the style with his classical training. However, Hoenig's Departure from the Northern Wasteland copies TD's style down to a "T" (and a "D"!).
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
Posted: October 11 2015 at 12:14
timothy leary wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Big Ears wrote:
Osibisa copied Santana without the guitars, surprisingly successfully.
No way
OSIBISA is a band that blended their native AFRICAN rhythms with Psychedelia, has nothing in common with Santana.
Santana focused in Salsa and Central American music, not in music from Ghana...As a fact, Teddy Osei and Sol Amarfio, started 10 years before Santana with a band called The Star Gazers playing Afro Dance and Jazz in Ghana,
When joined by Mac Tontoh they form the Comets in 1962 and they were already playing the same kind of music as Osibisa, because when expatriated Osei and Amarfio got impressed with Rock which they added to the Afro High Life Dance Music.
They were the central lineup of Osibisa and formed The Cat Paws that turned into Osibisa after three Caribbean musicians joined.
So no way, OSIBISA are 100% original.
Iván
In the Bio for Osibisa it mentions Santana influences. The bio was written by you, Ivan.
And I stand on it.
I say INFLUENCED, you say RIPPED...Every band in the 60's was influenced by others, when The Beach Boys released an album, The Beatles took ideas, when Santana a added a Psiche organ to Latin Rock, everybody tried to do something similar with their native music.
It's obvious that the Psyche component has influences, but their Tribal African Rock is absolutely unique
But this doesn't mean they ripped anybody, they simply added some characteristics of other musicians to their already unique sound.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 11 2015 at 12:33
Arc Redshift Michael Garrison Radio Massacre International Neuronium Node Airsculpture Wolfgang Bock Ian Boddy Dallas Campbell Cosmic Ground Earthstar Emeralds Free System Projekt Steve Hauschildt Michael Hoenig Bernd Kistenmacher Peak Phrozenlight Jonas Reinhardt Robert Schroeder Mark Shreeve Space Art
Many more where they came from - some better than others (some even manage to take the TD ingredient and turn it into something semi-unique).
Edited by Guldbamsen - October 11 2015 at 11:54
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
Osibisa copied Santana without the guitars, surprisingly successfully.
No way
OSIBISA is a band that blended their native AFRICAN rhythms with Psychedelia, has nothing in common with Santana.
Santana focused in Salsa and Central American music, not in music from Ghana...As a fact, Teddy Osei and Sol Amarfio, started 10 years before Santana with a band called The Star Gazers playing Afro Dance and Jazz in Ghana,
When joined by Mac Tontoh they form the Comets in 1962 and they were already playing the same kind of music as Osibisa, because when expatriated Osei and Amarfio got impressed with Rock which they added to the Afro High Life Dance Music.
They were the central lineup of Osibisa and formed The Cat Paws that turned into Osibisa after three Caribbean musicians joined.
So no way, OSIBISA are 100% original.
Iván
In the Bio for Osibisa it mentions Santana influences. The bio was written by you, Ivan.
Joined: November 11 2005
Location: Manchester, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 9226
Posted: October 11 2015 at 09:10
Sagichim wrote:
I think Bi Kyo Ran wasn't mentioned yet. They are a japanese band who clearly copy King Crimson especially the Red album era. Why listen to them? because they are actually very good!
The first album came out in 82' and the second in 84', both are very good albums, recommended.
Never made that connection in my head. Bi Kyo Ran sound rawer/heavier and the vocals differentiate them. But now that you mentioned I should go back and check again!
King Crimson's In the Wake of Poseidon is a rip off of King Crimson's In the Court of the Crimson King. Does that count?
Well, not nearly as much as Bob's rip-off of Gustav Holst's "Mars, the Bringer of War" for his own song "The Devil's Triangle"!
King Crimson performed a rock arrangement of "Mars" live in 1969.[citation needed] This arrangement was issued on their second LP, In the Wake of Poseidon, although for copyright reasons it was renamed "The Devil's Triangle" and Robert Fripp claimed authorship, with Holst receiving no composer credit.
You are right and this was obviously in bad taste on Fripp's behalf. I mean just because he's Fripp..people will come up with the defense for him in a subtle, intellectual way which is always , (9 hundred and 99 times out of a thousand), a huge case of "what if's" . I just have a problem being convinced that Fripp himself would ever do something like this. Supposedly he adapted something from Bartok music written for string quartet on Larks, (although Bartok is not receiving credit), perhaps it is less revealing unlike "Devil's Triangle" being the obvious. It's really strange that someone would think in their own mind...that they could get away with replacing the original composers name with their own. Personally...I would have felt strange and awkward if I were to do something like this. I wouldn't be able to live with it and because of the principal alone. Is their some sort of Holst estate maintaining the protection for his music or is there some completely pointless law that applies the choice for people to exploit the options of an item being public domain. In otherwords, "I can borrow ...just to borrow for an extended time, credit my name, etc. So it's totally disgraceful because you are taking someone else's music , written in a different century ...and you're not willing to be honest and correct anyone who asks if you wrote it and it becomes accepted as a formality within the business. ????
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
Posted: October 09 2015 at 01:49
Big Ears wrote:
Osibisa copied Santana without the guitars, surprisingly successfully.
No way
OSIBISA is a band that blended their native AFRICAN rhythms with Psychedelia, has nothing in common with Santana.
Santana focused in Salsa and Central American music, not in music from Ghana...As a fact, Teddy Osei and Sol Amarfio, started 10 years before Santana with a band called The Star Gazers playing Afro Dance and Jazz in Ghana,
When joined by Mac Tontoh they form the Comets in 1962 and they were already playing the same kind of music as Osibisa, because when expatriated Osei and Amarfio got impressed with Rock which they added to the Afro High Life Dance Music.
They were the central lineup of Osibisa and formed The Cat Paws that turned into Osibisa after three Caribbean musicians joined.
So no way, OSIBISA are 100% original.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 09 2015 at 01:52
Joined: November 29 2006
Location: Israel
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Points: 6632
Posted: October 09 2015 at 00:47
I think Bi Kyo Ran wasn't mentioned yet. They are a japanese band who clearly copy King Crimson especially the Red album era. Why listen to them? because they are actually very good!
The first album came out in 82' and the second in 84', both are very good albums, recommended.
Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6756
Posted: October 08 2015 at 23:59
HackettFan wrote:
King Crimson's In the Wake of Poseidon is a rip off of King Crimson's In the Court of the Crimson King. Does that count?
Well, not nearly as much as Bob's rip-off of Gustav Holst's "Mars, the Bringer of War" for his own song "The Devil's Triangle"!
King Crimson performed a rock arrangement of "Mars" live in 1969.[citation needed] This arrangement was issued on their second LP, In the Wake of Poseidon, although for copyright reasons it was renamed "The Devil's Triangle" and Robert Fripp claimed authorship, with Holst receiving no composer credit.
[QUOTE=TODDLER]Solaris are a Jethro Tull rip off. I love Solaris and it doesn't seem to bother me.
What are you talking about?
I don't hear that when I listen to Solaris
me neither. They both use flute
[/QUO
Well....that seems kind of a silly thing to say, as if I'm pointing this out based on the obvious knowledge that they both use flutes. You should listen closely
King Crimson's In the Wake of Poseidon is a rip off of King Crimson's In the Court of the Crimson King. Does that count?
How is it a rip off...?
If one looks at many (if not most bands, reg and prog) their second albums are often very similar to the first.
So making an album in the same style is considered a rip off now...?
Of course! You can expect that kind of comment on a Prog website. The irony though is people who often make a comment like this continue to listen to Prog music that is a redundant collection of copy cat nonsense and then they turn around and point to an observation like this. An observation from 1970 instead of realizing it exists more in the 21st century than ever before. Hoist their own petard on that one.
Joined: January 11 2012
Location: Columbus&NYC
Status: Offline
Points: 3167
Posted: October 08 2015 at 18:07
dr wu23 wrote:
Raff wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
Smurph wrote:
Some people think Yezda Urfa is sort of a clone band... but. I would never consider them such myself. I like their 2 albums more than I like almost any Yes or Gentle Giant record.
Also... the first Hands compilation shows that they sounded quite a bit like Kansas but I also think I prefer them.
Do you mean Hands as in the symph/prog fusion band....? If so they don't sound like Kansas to me, and imho they aren't even really symph prog. Never understood that classification.
Their latest album and the one before, Strangelet, are definitely not - nor do they sound remotely like Kansas. However, their earlier material (recorded in the late Seventies) may well have been different.
Well...the very first one is more of a Canterbury prog fusion thing and doesn't sound anything like Kansas imho. I am not that familiar with the 2 after that.
I don't know Kansas well enough to know I guess... Maybe I'm just a
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
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Points: 20468
Posted: October 08 2015 at 16:09
Raff wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
Smurph wrote:
Some people think Yezda Urfa is sort of a clone band... but. I would never consider them such myself. I like their 2 albums more than I like almost any Yes or Gentle Giant record.
Also... the first Hands compilation shows that they sounded quite a bit like Kansas but I also think I prefer them.
Do you mean Hands as in the symph/prog fusion band....? If so they don't sound like Kansas to me, and imho they aren't even really symph prog. Never understood that classification.
Their latest album and the one before, Strangelet, are definitely not - nor do they sound remotely like Kansas. However, their earlier material (recorded in the late Seventies) may well have been different.
Well...the very first one is more of a Canterbury prog fusion thing and doesn't sound anything like Kansas imho. I am not that familiar with the 2 after that.
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
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Points: 24391
Posted: October 08 2015 at 15:53
dr wu23 wrote:
Smurph wrote:
Some people think Yezda Urfa is sort of a clone band... but. I would never consider them such myself. I like their 2 albums more than I like almost any Yes or Gentle Giant record.
Also... the first Hands compilation shows that they sounded quite a bit like Kansas but I also think I prefer them.
Do you mean Hands as in the symph/prog fusion band....? If so they don't sound like Kansas to me, and imho they aren't even really symph prog. Never understood that classification.
Their latest album and the one before, Strangelet, are definitely not - nor do they sound remotely like Kansas. However, their earlier material (recorded in the late Seventies) may well have been different.
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Topic: Rip off bands of the 70s/80s?
Rip off bands of the 70s/80s?
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TODDLER wrote: