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Joined: August 18 2013
Location: Germany
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Topic: Englishness and English Phlegm in Prog Posted: May 08 2016 at 08:46
It is probably no coincidence that prog emerged in England of all places. But I don't think "English phlegm" - whatever that may be! - played a major role. I conjecture that the following factors were involved:
1. England was the place where rock and roll matured - and returned to America after the Payola scandal and several rock'n'roll stars disappeared in jail, the army or the realm of the dead, giving way to Brill Building pop until the Beatles and their ilk invaded.
2. England, with composers like Tippett and Britten, was the last stronghold of tonal classical music in the second half of the 20th century in the free world, resisting against the serialist paradigm that had taken over on the Continent and in North America by then. This enabled English rock musicians to draw on the tradition of tonal classical music without seeming to fall out of time too much.
3. Related to the above, the influence of Anglican church music on progressive rock has been pointed out by various scholars.
4. In England, romanticism had married with progressive political thought, while elsewhere, it had been more or less highjacked by the right. Everywhere else, the left was technocratic. This was something that strongly influenced the ideology of progressive rock.
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
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Joined: April 29 2004
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Posted: May 07 2016 at 12:33
Davesax1965 wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Dean wrote:
malsader wrote:
Not meaning to digress from the main topic of the posting, but I have to correct you on the matter of "Britishness".
Britain is not England Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Britain is just England Scotland and wales. The term The United Kingdom refers to England Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, hence the correct term being: The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
The name Great Britain is actually the Greek term for the largest island in the island archipelago of the British Isles, the next largest island they called Little Britain ('mikris Brettanias') which we now call Ireland. Since this is an island grouping defined by geography and not an arbitrary scribbling of lines on a map drawn by kings, princes and generals the island of Ireland will always be British...
Didn't the Greeks call the main island Albion, because of the white cliffs of Dover, seen from the continent?
I used to live in Deal and work in Folkestone, so I went through Dover every day. Actually, the white cliffs are green when you get up close to them due to mould and algae. ;-)
well, no doubt that up close... you'd get the same thing in Boulogne (called Blanc Nez cape) area and the Normandy cliff too in that case ... Last time I was in Hastings (October under the rain) , the cliffs were whitish too
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Posted: May 07 2016 at 09:21
You are absolutely correct. I am referring not to the historical/geographic naming but to the modern political one. I am not a fan of Wikipedia but here goes any way:
Joined: May 23 2013
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Posted: May 07 2016 at 04:34
Sean Trane wrote:
Dean wrote:
malsader wrote:
Not meaning to digress from the main topic of the posting, but I have to correct you on the matter of "Britishness".
Britain is not England Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Britain is just England Scotland and wales. The term The United Kingdom refers to England Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, hence the correct term being: The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
The name Great Britain is actually the Greek term for the largest island in the island archipelago of the British Isles, the next largest island they called Little Britain ('mikris Brettanias') which we now call Ireland. Since this is an island grouping defined by geography and not an arbitrary scribbling of lines on a map drawn by kings, princes and generals the island of Ireland will always be British...
Didn't the Greeks call the main island Albion, because of the white cliffs of Dover, seen from the continent?
I used to live in Deal and work in Folkestone, so I went through Dover every day. Actually, the white cliffs are green when you get up close to them due to mould and algae. ;-)
Joined: December 30 2006
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Posted: May 07 2016 at 03:14
I guess the epitome of the kind of Englishness the OP is referring to, and self-consciously so, would be the band England (natch...) and their album Garden Shed:
Excellent musicianship for sure - but for my taste, too twee.
That record came out in 1977. I would have been nine. My experience of England, at the junior school I went to in Leeds, was a bit different. The question that if you were unlucky the big lads would ask you in the playground was whether you were a Mod, a Rocker or a Punk - the third element having been added about a year previously. And yeah, Leeds and Bradford were so massively behind the times that Mods vs. Rockers was still a thing there in the late seventies. The answer you gave to the question didn't really matter, though, it was just a pretext to thump you.
Of course your tribal musical identity at that age was passed down from older brothers, if you had them. Apart from my mate Carl who idolised Elvis and wore a bootlace tie to school (1977 would turn out to be a bad year for him) I don't remember anyone having much interest in actual music beyond TOTP and what was on the radio. Some lads had Northern Soul patches on their denim jackets, but that was an older brother thing again. I didn't have one, but of my friends who did, most had gone punk. That didn't mean they'd thrown their Pink Floyd albums away, though - they weren't daft, after all.
Having grown up on Teesside and in Newcastle I'm with Dave (and Dean)
I would like to believe it is not really about being with anyone. Obviously, everyone has their own opinion and so I'm really delighted for us to be able to share different opinions, discuss, learn (in my case) in a polite and affable manner. That's one of the great things about Progarchives forums.
Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: May 06 2016 at 18:55
Sean Trane wrote:
Dean wrote:
malsader wrote:
Not meaning to digress from the main topic of the posting, but I have to correct you on the matter of "Britishness".
Britain is not England Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Britain is just England Scotland and wales. The term The United Kingdom refers to England Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, hence the correct term being: The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
The name Great Britain is actually the Greek term for the largest island in the island archipelago of the British Isles, the next largest island they called Little Britain ('mikris Brettanias') which we now call Ireland. Since this is an island grouping defined by geography and not an arbitrary scribbling of lines on a map drawn by kings, princes and generals the island of Ireland will always be British...
Didn't the Greeks call the main island Albion, because of the white cliffs of Dover, seen from the continent?
Albion is the older of the two names the Greeks gave it, though whether it was derived from the off-white cliffs of Dover or not is pureconjecture
Joined: April 29 2004
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Posted: May 06 2016 at 17:33
Dean wrote:
malsader wrote:
Not meaning to digress from the main topic of the posting, but I have to correct you on the matter of "Britishness".
Britain is not England Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Britain is just England Scotland and wales. The term The United Kingdom refers to England Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, hence the correct term being: The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
The name Great Britain is actually the Greek term for the largest island in the island archipelago of the British Isles, the next largest island they called Little Britain ('mikris Brettanias') which we now call Ireland. Since this is an island grouping defined by geography and not an arbitrary scribbling of lines on a map drawn by kings, princes and generals the island of Ireland will always be British...
Didn't the Greeks call the main island Albion, because of the white cliffs of Dover, seen from the continent?
Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: May 06 2016 at 16:56
malsader wrote:
Not meaning to digress from the main topic of the posting, but I have to correct you on the matter of "Britishness".
Britain is not England Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Britain is just England Scotland and wales. The term The United Kingdom refers to England Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, hence the correct term being: The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
The name Great Britain is actually the Greek term for the largest island in the island archipelago of the British Isles, the next largest island they called Little Britain ('mikris Brettanias') which we now call Ireland. Since this is an island grouping defined by geography and not an arbitrary scribbling of lines on a map drawn by kings, princes and generals the island of Ireland will always be British...
In doing so, some Irish-folk-prog (I believe this is based on Irish folk, not 100% positive) might do :)
Perhaps not as obscure as Stackridge, but criminally underrated! Also, thanks to Dean for the Stackridge "recommendation". Really good band, I had never heard of them until you posted them!
Joined: April 29 2004
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Posted: May 06 2016 at 12:27
Davesax1965 wrote:
Not as pedantic as it could be. ;-)
Sean Trane, thanks, mate. Official prize for the most obscure prog rock band ever, surely. ;-)
I'm the one who introduced the band in PA's database (well with my PF team did, on my initiative), but it took Dean to bring it back to the forefront for its minute of glory in the 10's
And if Brexit ever occurs, I bet the UK will not be of Great Britain anymore as the Scots will likely win the next referendum (the Nationalists won big time in the North-of-Adrian-Wall elections.
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Posted: May 06 2016 at 08:32
Not meaning to digress from the main topic of the posting, but I have to correct you on the matter of "Britishness".
Britain is not England Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Britain is just England Scotland and wales. The term The United Kingdom refers to England Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, hence the correct term being: The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Joined: April 29 2004
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Posted: May 06 2016 at 02:29
Dean wrote:
...anyway...
Perfectly quintessential unphlegmatic Englishnessnessness from the third (or possibly fourth, *shrug*) most well-known English Progressive Rock band you've possibly never heard of:
This is absolutely stunning, but I couldn't remember it on ny of the first five studio albums... I had to search for (and finally found) it in the bonus tracks of Friendliness... Was this ever released in the 70's?
I'd have loved this to be on their debut album or Extravaganza (my two fave Stackridge album)
As Dave says, this discussion is a little more interesting and thought provoking than just posting examples that illustrate the original premiss, but are in fact misleading....
Davesax1965 wrote:
Prog rock starts off by being brewed up by a number of privileged middle class kids at a selective number of universities. Their music is listened to by very worthy promoters and producers from an upper middle class background who then decide what the General Unwashed Public are going to hear. Prog rock picks up on a wistful yearning for childhood and bucolic themes of nature from the previous psychedelic era (although it does to an extent intermingle with it.) This is played to people who have a choice of Max Bygraves or a few other groups..... who generally live in housing stock which hasn't changed all that much since 1915. Remember, two world wars, rationing, near bankrupt country.
When prog comes out - late sixties - things are beginning to change in the UK. And the rest of the world, for that matter. Living standards are, for the first time since WW2, increasing. There is - across the world, a sense of the optimistic or possible. This is reflected in the music. People are more inclined to consider new forms of music (look at Krautrock in Germany: the art of the new and experimental replacing the older establishment Schlager music). So, at the time, prog rock becomes acceptable. It's fantasy, experiment and a yearning for a bucolic, mythical golden age which is certainly a bit nicer than living in a smoke blackened terraced house with a gasometer at the end of the road.
What happens ? Well, after a while, the dream, which is still somewhat of a hippie / psychedelic dream, goes pretty sour in the UK, with increased strikes, social tension.... reality kicks in. And then you get a more angry, uptempo music replacing it which pretty much echoes what is going on in society. So. Is THAT actually "English" ? Is punk rock - a reflection of youth culture in the late 1970's - more reflective of being "English" than music created and distributed by a very few privileged people a few years before ? And, as Dean says, why on Earth do people outside of the UK think that the English are somehow bucolic, slow moving and ponderous ?
A fair assessment but not one I wholly agree with. England in the early 1970 was already beginning to lose the optimism that the middle of sixties represented (the white heat of technology ... or 1963 and all that), the post-flower-power psychedelic dream bubble had already burst. Prog Rock was as much a product of that as Punk was a few years later - 21st Century Schizoid Man is a perfect example of the rapidly fading optimism; with Dark Side of the Moon (ignoring the insanity subtext) we see modern life viewed with cynicism; Selling England By The Pound paints images in pastoral shades that are contrary to the stories they tell (all that fighting and stamping & shouting) ... and this is before we even start looking at Van der Graaf Generator.
Prog Rock came in many shades and hews some of it was a continuation out of psychedelia and hippiedom and some of it was a reaction to it, just as Krautrock was as much a reaction to western (Anglo/American) popular music as it was to Schlager music.
Twee, this is not:
Well said, thank you. The Van Der Graaf Generator song is also great, I've just bought Still Life on vinyl a few days ago.
Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: May 04 2016 at 11:35
As Dave says, this discussion is a little more interesting and thought provoking than just posting examples that illustrate the original premiss, but are in fact misleading....
Davesax1965 wrote:
Prog rock starts off by being brewed up by a number of privileged middle class kids at a selective number of universities. Their music is listened to by very worthy promoters and producers from an upper middle class background who then decide what the General Unwashed Public are going to hear. Prog rock picks up on a wistful yearning for childhood and bucolic themes of nature from the previous psychedelic era (although it does to an extent intermingle with it.) This is played to people who have a choice of Max Bygraves or a few other groups..... who generally live in housing stock which hasn't changed all that much since 1915. Remember, two world wars, rationing, near bankrupt country.
When prog comes out - late sixties - things are beginning to change in the UK. And the rest of the world, for that matter. Living standards are, for the first time since WW2, increasing. There is - across the world, a sense of the optimistic or possible. This is reflected in the music. People are more inclined to consider new forms of music (look at Krautrock in Germany: the art of the new and experimental replacing the older establishment Schlager music). So, at the time, prog rock becomes acceptable. It's fantasy, experiment and a yearning for a bucolic, mythical golden age which is certainly a bit nicer than living in a smoke blackened terraced house with a gasometer at the end of the road.
What happens ? Well, after a while, the dream, which is still somewhat of a hippie / psychedelic dream, goes pretty sour in the UK, with increased strikes, social tension.... reality kicks in. And then you get a more angry, uptempo music replacing it which pretty much echoes what is going on in society. So. Is THAT actually "English" ? Is punk rock - a reflection of youth culture in the late 1970's - more reflective of being "English" than music created and distributed by a very few privileged people a few years before ? And, as Dean says, why on Earth do people outside of the UK think that the English are somehow bucolic, slow moving and ponderous ?
A fair assessment but not one I wholly agree with. England in the early 1970 was already beginning to lose the optimism that the middle of sixties represented (the white heat of technology ... or 1963 and all that), the post-flower-power psychedelic dream bubble had already burst. Prog Rock was as much a product of that as Punk was a few years later - 21st Century Schizoid Man is a perfect example of the rapidly fading optimism; with Dark Side of the Moon (ignoring the insanity subtext) we see modern life viewed with cynicism; Selling England By The Pound paints images in pastoral shades that are contrary to the stories they tell (all that fighting and stamping & shouting) ... and this is before we even start looking at Van der Graaf Generator.
Prog Rock came in many shades and hews some of it was a continuation out of psychedelia and hippiedom and some of it was a reaction to it, just as Krautrock was as much a reaction to western (Anglo/American) popular music as it was to Schlager music.
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