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Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2826
Posted: May 04 2016 at 02:44
Sorry, it's not "a thread bogged down in pendantic nit picking".
What I find ... irritating..... is when someone from a different culture comes on a thread and tells me what it is to be English, and then tells me I can't possibly know, as I'm English, and therefore can't see it.
File under "patronising", cross file under "stupidity".
If this thread is just "let's all have a little club where we post songs which have some kind of proto- English connection to them", then that's just some boring game which is probably on a level of the "solve if u r genius" threads you see all over social media. Boring, boring, boring.
(As for the "lots of low class" in England, sh*tfire, man, WORKING class. "Low class" is an insult. And if you don't know the difference between "English" and "British" then what are you doing commenting on this thread ??????? )
I stuck my oar in here because (a) I find a lot of people telling me what it is to be English who don't have a clue and (b) there's a MUCH more interesting point here.
Prog rock starts off by being brewed up by a number of privileged middle class kids at a selective number of universities. Their music is listened to by very worthy promoters and producers from an upper middle class background who then decide what the General Unwashed Public are going to hear. Prog rock picks up on a wistful yearning for childhood and bucolic themes of nature from the previous psychedelic era (although it does to an extent intermingle with it.) This is played to people who have a choice of Max Bygraves or a few other groups..... who generally live in housing stock which hasn't changed all that much since 1915. Remember, two world wars, rationing, near bankrupt country.
When prog comes out - late sixties - things are beginning to change in the UK. And the rest of the world, for that matter. Living standards are, for the first time since WW2, increasing. There is - across the world, a sense of the optimistic or possible. This is reflected in the music. People are more inclined to consider new forms of music (look at Krautrock in Germany: the art of the new and experimental replacing the older establishment Schlager music). So, at the time, prog rock becomes acceptable. It's fantasy, experiment and a yearning for a bucolic, mythical golden age which is certainly a bit nicer than living in a smoke blackened terraced house with a gasometer at the end of the road.
What happens ? Well, after a while, the dream, which is still somewhat of a hippie / psychedelic dream, goes pretty sour in the UK, with increased strikes, social tension.... reality kicks in. And then you get a more angry, uptempo music replacing it which pretty much echoes what is going on in society. So. Is THAT actually "English" ? Is punk rock - a reflection of youth culture in the late 1970's - more reflective of being "English" than music created and distributed by a very few privileged people a few years before ? And, as Dean says, why on Earth do people outside of the UK think that the English are somehow bucolic, slow moving and ponderous ?
So I find that a bit more of an interesting conversational subject than people telling me "what it is to be English and how I can't hear English themes in music because I'm English myself. " Do me a favour.
It also completely overlooks the fact that English musicians have English influences and are playing in England. What do you expect them to sound like ? Chinese ????? Yes, people copied it. With - as we can see - no understanding whatsoever.
By all means have fun posting "examples of Englishness in music" but please don't confuse it with *actually being English" unless you've been here and lived here. Otherwise I'll tell you all about your country and what it's like and then tell you you're wrong.
Sorry, it's not "a thread bogged down in pendantic nit picking".
What I find ... irritating..... is when someone from a different culture comes on a thread and tells me what it is to be English, and then tells me I can't possibly know, as I'm English, and therefore can't see it.
File under "patronising", cross file under "stupidity".
If this thread is just "let's all have a little club where we post songs which have some kind of proto- English connection to them", then that's just some boring game which is probably on a level of the "solve if u r genius" threads you see all over social media. Boring, boring, boring.
(As for the "lots of low class" in England, sh*tfire, man, WORKING class. "Low class" is an insult. And if you don't know the difference between "English" and "British" then what are you doing commenting on this thread ??????? )
I stuck my oar in here because (a) I find a lot of people telling me what it is to be English who don't have a clue and (b) there's a MUCH more interesting point here.
Prog rock starts off by being brewed up by a number of privileged middle class kids at a selective number of universities. Their music is listened to by very worthy promoters and producers from an upper middle class background who then decide what the General Unwashed Public are going to hear. Prog rock picks up on a wistful yearning for childhood and bucolic themes of nature from the previous psychedelic era (although it does to an extent intermingle with it.) This is played to people who have a choice of Max Bygraves or a few other groups..... who generally live in housing stock which hasn't changed all that much since 1915. Remember, two world wars, rationing, near bankrupt country.
When prog comes out - late sixties - things are beginning to change in the UK. And the rest of the world, for that matter. Living standards are, for the first time since WW2, increasing. There is - across the world, a sense of the optimistic or possible. This is reflected in the music. People are more inclined to consider new forms of music (look at Krautrock in Germany: the art of the new and experimental replacing the older establishment Schlager music). So, at the time, prog rock becomes acceptable. It's fantasy, experiment and a yearning for a bucolic, mythical golden age which is certainly a bit nicer than living in a smoke blackened terraced house with a gasometer at the end of the road.
What happens ? Well, after a while, the dream, which is still somewhat of a hippie / psychedelic dream, goes pretty sour in the UK, with increased strikes, social tension.... reality kicks in. And then you get a more angry, uptempo music replacing it which pretty much echoes what is going on in society. So. Is THAT actually "English" ? Is punk rock - a reflection of youth culture in the late 1970's - more reflective of being "English" than music created and distributed by a very few privileged people a few years before ? And, as Dean says, why on Earth do people outside of the UK think that the English are somehow bucolic, slow moving and ponderous ?
So I find that a bit more of an interesting conversational subject than people telling me "what it is to be English and how I can't hear English themes in music because I'm English myself. " Do me a favour.
It also completely overlooks the fact that English musicians have English influences and are playing in England. What do you expect them to sound like ? Chinese ????? Yes, people copied it. With - as we can see - no understanding whatsoever.
By all means have fun posting "examples of Englishness in music" but please don't confuse it with *actually being English" unless you've been here and lived here. Otherwise I'll tell you all about your country and what it's like and then tell you you're wrong.
Sorry. To clear up. What I meant was that the Englishness is really what foreigners saw. You as a British person do know that really it's an imaginated thing or true only to a small extent. I am aware that "Englishness" is not actually being English, I have been to England numerous times. And as to confusing low class with working class, sorry, I did mean working class, I didn't mean to offend anyone. And as to the difference between British and English, if you look through preivous posts, I did not say that there is no difference. English phlegm might have been an inaccurate term, I agree. I didn't mean to get you angry, man... I am thinking about deleting the thread as it brought rather negative emotions, which wasn't my point in the first place.
Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2826
Posted: May 04 2016 at 10:47
No, it's honestly more interesting now. Seriously, you'll find that the English don't actually take mortal offence to stuff like this, it's just our sense of humour. ;-) I'm rather amused that a lot of foreign people have this view of the English.
It's also quite interesting to reflect that a lot of prog rock from the 60's and 70's has scenes of bucolic idyll in, which hadn't existed here since, well, about 1760 and the Industrial Revolution (remember, we're the first country to industrialise by a long way) - it's just weird. Of course, within a few years, the music changes, the references change, too.
I could just have easily put up "Forgotten Sons" by Marillion, which is all about getting your nuts shot off in Northern Ireland during the Troubles. That reflected a lot on the actual times, and was probably more about being English in the mid 80's than sipping tea by a cricket pitch lyrics in 1974.
Please don't stop putting up threads about what you perceive as what it is to be "English" either, honestly, go right ahead because not doing so deprives of us some good music. Could we please not think that it's anything other than a cartoon version of being English, though ? ;-)
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: May 04 2016 at 11:35
As Dave says, this discussion is a little more interesting and thought provoking than just posting examples that illustrate the original premiss, but are in fact misleading....
Davesax1965 wrote:
Prog rock starts off by being brewed up by a number of privileged middle class kids at a selective number of universities. Their music is listened to by very worthy promoters and producers from an upper middle class background who then decide what the General Unwashed Public are going to hear. Prog rock picks up on a wistful yearning for childhood and bucolic themes of nature from the previous psychedelic era (although it does to an extent intermingle with it.) This is played to people who have a choice of Max Bygraves or a few other groups..... who generally live in housing stock which hasn't changed all that much since 1915. Remember, two world wars, rationing, near bankrupt country.
When prog comes out - late sixties - things are beginning to change in the UK. And the rest of the world, for that matter. Living standards are, for the first time since WW2, increasing. There is - across the world, a sense of the optimistic or possible. This is reflected in the music. People are more inclined to consider new forms of music (look at Krautrock in Germany: the art of the new and experimental replacing the older establishment Schlager music). So, at the time, prog rock becomes acceptable. It's fantasy, experiment and a yearning for a bucolic, mythical golden age which is certainly a bit nicer than living in a smoke blackened terraced house with a gasometer at the end of the road.
What happens ? Well, after a while, the dream, which is still somewhat of a hippie / psychedelic dream, goes pretty sour in the UK, with increased strikes, social tension.... reality kicks in. And then you get a more angry, uptempo music replacing it which pretty much echoes what is going on in society. So. Is THAT actually "English" ? Is punk rock - a reflection of youth culture in the late 1970's - more reflective of being "English" than music created and distributed by a very few privileged people a few years before ? And, as Dean says, why on Earth do people outside of the UK think that the English are somehow bucolic, slow moving and ponderous ?
A fair assessment but not one I wholly agree with. England in the early 1970 was already beginning to lose the optimism that the middle of sixties represented (the white heat of technology ... or 1963 and all that), the post-flower-power psychedelic dream bubble had already burst. Prog Rock was as much a product of that as Punk was a few years later - 21st Century Schizoid Man is a perfect example of the rapidly fading optimism; with Dark Side of the Moon (ignoring the insanity subtext) we see modern life viewed with cynicism; Selling England By The Pound paints images in pastoral shades that are contrary to the stories they tell (all that fighting and stamping & shouting) ... and this is before we even start looking at Van der Graaf Generator.
Prog Rock came in many shades and hews some of it was a continuation out of psychedelia and hippiedom and some of it was a reaction to it, just as Krautrock was as much a reaction to western (Anglo/American) popular music as it was to Schlager music.
As Dave says, this discussion is a little more interesting and thought provoking than just posting examples that illustrate the original premiss, but are in fact misleading....
Davesax1965 wrote:
Prog rock starts off by being brewed up by a number of privileged middle class kids at a selective number of universities. Their music is listened to by very worthy promoters and producers from an upper middle class background who then decide what the General Unwashed Public are going to hear. Prog rock picks up on a wistful yearning for childhood and bucolic themes of nature from the previous psychedelic era (although it does to an extent intermingle with it.) This is played to people who have a choice of Max Bygraves or a few other groups..... who generally live in housing stock which hasn't changed all that much since 1915. Remember, two world wars, rationing, near bankrupt country.
When prog comes out - late sixties - things are beginning to change in the UK. And the rest of the world, for that matter. Living standards are, for the first time since WW2, increasing. There is - across the world, a sense of the optimistic or possible. This is reflected in the music. People are more inclined to consider new forms of music (look at Krautrock in Germany: the art of the new and experimental replacing the older establishment Schlager music). So, at the time, prog rock becomes acceptable. It's fantasy, experiment and a yearning for a bucolic, mythical golden age which is certainly a bit nicer than living in a smoke blackened terraced house with a gasometer at the end of the road.
What happens ? Well, after a while, the dream, which is still somewhat of a hippie / psychedelic dream, goes pretty sour in the UK, with increased strikes, social tension.... reality kicks in. And then you get a more angry, uptempo music replacing it which pretty much echoes what is going on in society. So. Is THAT actually "English" ? Is punk rock - a reflection of youth culture in the late 1970's - more reflective of being "English" than music created and distributed by a very few privileged people a few years before ? And, as Dean says, why on Earth do people outside of the UK think that the English are somehow bucolic, slow moving and ponderous ?
A fair assessment but not one I wholly agree with. England in the early 1970 was already beginning to lose the optimism that the middle of sixties represented (the white heat of technology ... or 1963 and all that), the post-flower-power psychedelic dream bubble had already burst. Prog Rock was as much a product of that as Punk was a few years later - 21st Century Schizoid Man is a perfect example of the rapidly fading optimism; with Dark Side of the Moon (ignoring the insanity subtext) we see modern life viewed with cynicism; Selling England By The Pound paints images in pastoral shades that are contrary to the stories they tell (all that fighting and stamping & shouting) ... and this is before we even start looking at Van der Graaf Generator.
Prog Rock came in many shades and hews some of it was a continuation out of psychedelia and hippiedom and some of it was a reaction to it, just as Krautrock was as much a reaction to western (Anglo/American) popular music as it was to Schlager music.
Twee, this is not:
Well said, thank you. The Van Der Graaf Generator song is also great, I've just bought Still Life on vinyl a few days ago.
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 19626
Posted: May 06 2016 at 02:29
Dean wrote:
...anyway...
Perfectly quintessential unphlegmatic Englishnessnessness from the third (or possibly fourth, *shrug*) most well-known English Progressive Rock band you've possibly never heard of:
This is absolutely stunning, but I couldn't remember it on ny of the first five studio albums... I had to search for (and finally found) it in the bonus tracks of Friendliness... Was this ever released in the 70's?
I'd have loved this to be on their debut album or Extravaganza (my two fave Stackridge album)
Joined: January 11 2012
Location: Ireland
Status: Offline
Points: 23
Posted: May 06 2016 at 08:32
Not meaning to digress from the main topic of the posting, but I have to correct you on the matter of "Britishness".
Britain is not England Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Britain is just England Scotland and wales. The term The United Kingdom refers to England Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, hence the correct term being: The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 19626
Posted: May 06 2016 at 12:27
Davesax1965 wrote:
Not as pedantic as it could be. ;-)
Sean Trane, thanks, mate. Official prize for the most obscure prog rock band ever, surely. ;-)
I'm the one who introduced the band in PA's database (well with my PF team did, on my initiative), but it took Dean to bring it back to the forefront for its minute of glory in the 10's
And if Brexit ever occurs, I bet the UK will not be of Great Britain anymore as the Scots will likely win the next referendum (the Nationalists won big time in the North-of-Adrian-Wall elections.
In doing so, some Irish-folk-prog (I believe this is based on Irish folk, not 100% positive) might do :)
Perhaps not as obscure as Stackridge, but criminally underrated! Also, thanks to Dean for the Stackridge "recommendation". Really good band, I had never heard of them until you posted them!
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: May 06 2016 at 16:56
malsader wrote:
Not meaning to digress from the main topic of the posting, but I have to correct you on the matter of "Britishness".
Britain is not England Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Britain is just England Scotland and wales. The term The United Kingdom refers to England Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, hence the correct term being: The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
The name Great Britain is actually the Greek term for the largest island in the island archipelago of the British Isles, the next largest island they called Little Britain ('mikris Brettanias') which we now call Ireland. Since this is an island grouping defined by geography and not an arbitrary scribbling of lines on a map drawn by kings, princes and generals the island of Ireland will always be British...
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 19626
Posted: May 06 2016 at 17:33
Dean wrote:
malsader wrote:
Not meaning to digress from the main topic of the posting, but I have to correct you on the matter of "Britishness".
Britain is not England Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Britain is just England Scotland and wales. The term The United Kingdom refers to England Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, hence the correct term being: The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
The name Great Britain is actually the Greek term for the largest island in the island archipelago of the British Isles, the next largest island they called Little Britain ('mikris Brettanias') which we now call Ireland. Since this is an island grouping defined by geography and not an arbitrary scribbling of lines on a map drawn by kings, princes and generals the island of Ireland will always be British...
Didn't the Greeks call the main island Albion, because of the white cliffs of Dover, seen from the continent?
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: May 06 2016 at 18:55
Sean Trane wrote:
Dean wrote:
malsader wrote:
Not meaning to digress from the main topic of the posting, but I have to correct you on the matter of "Britishness".
Britain is not England Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Britain is just England Scotland and wales. The term The United Kingdom refers to England Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, hence the correct term being: The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
The name Great Britain is actually the Greek term for the largest island in the island archipelago of the British Isles, the next largest island they called Little Britain ('mikris Brettanias') which we now call Ireland. Since this is an island grouping defined by geography and not an arbitrary scribbling of lines on a map drawn by kings, princes and generals the island of Ireland will always be British...
Didn't the Greeks call the main island Albion, because of the white cliffs of Dover, seen from the continent?
Albion is the older of the two names the Greeks gave it, though whether it was derived from the off-white cliffs of Dover or not is pureconjecture
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