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rogerthat 
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 Posted: October 22 2016 at 20:05 |
 Atavachron wrote:
He has a great voice, or maybe I should say he is a great singer. I'm not even that big a fan and I can hear the greatness in his vocal ability and expression. That it's nasal and annoying to is irrelevant. In fact his singing ability is far better than those who are usually credited as having "a good voice". He even beats many of his peers in singing: Neil Young, Hendrix, Clapton, certainly Townshend, Waters & Gilmour.
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I haven't heard much of Young but seeing as the others aren't exactly shining beacons of amazing vocal ability, I do not actually find it very hard to imagine Dylan as being better than them. Only Gilmour from that list even has halfway decent power and he's kind of straight up and flat at the best of times, not much happening at all in the phrasing.
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Atavachron
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Posted: October 22 2016 at 20:27 |
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^ Well he was not a gifted vocalist, certainly not in the rock or folk tradition, but I could go on with singers he was no less impressive than: Mick Jagger, Jim Morrison, Paul Simon, Syd Barrett, quite a few others.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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rogerthat
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Posted: October 22 2016 at 20:41 |
Atavachron wrote:
^ Well he was not a gifted vocalist, certainly not in the rock or folk tradition, but I could go on with singers he was no less impressive than: Mick Jagger, Jim Morrison, Paul Simon, Syd Barrett, quite a few others.
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Again, not really singers I was too impressed by. In all these cases, I would say people were/are simply fascinated by a tone they connected with personally and not necessarily great singing ability. Say somebody like AXL Rose sounds like he's taking a crap when he gets into his head voice, I hate his tone. But he has amazing skills; he just did a great job filling in for Brian Johnson. Most of the 'great' singers of rock were really great songwriters who could sing competently enough not to ruin their material. As it turns out, the virtuosos tended to either not have any songwriting ability or be mediocre at it - JLT, David Coverdale, Steve Perry, even RJD come to think of it (his 'songwriting' was really limited to imitating Sabbath and Rainbow, the two bands he had been in just prior to going solo). Jeff Buckley was the only exception and he died way too soon.
Edited by rogerthat - October 22 2016 at 20:42
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Atavachron
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Posted: October 22 2016 at 20:46 |
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Right. Plant is a rare exception but even there it's his ability to recreate himself and grow. Certainly most of his range was all but gone by 1980.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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rogerthat
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Posted: October 22 2016 at 20:53 |
Atavachron wrote:
Right. Plant is a rare exception but even there it's his ability to recreate himself and grow. Certainly most of his range was all but gone by 1980.
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Yeah, Plant too. I left him out because he was a part of a band with incredible talent. I'd really have to listen to his solo stuff to evaluate how good he was at songwriting when he couldn't lean on talented bandmates for help.
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Atavachron
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Posted: October 22 2016 at 20:59 |
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Oh he leaned, he leaned plenty, and on some first-rate fellas; Robbie Blunt, Cozy Powell, Barrimore Barlow, Phil Collins, and some good young Americans for his fourth and fifth. That said, he is also a very good songwriter (as rock singers go) and his encyclopedic knowledge of Blues and Blues phrasing helps, I'm sure.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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SteveG
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Posted: October 24 2016 at 04:41 |
Atavachron wrote:
He has a great voice, or maybe I should say he is a great singer. I'm not even that big a fan and I can hear the greatness in his vocal ability and expression. That it's nasal and annoying to is irrelevant.
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Hmm. Perhaps if one is deaf.
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The T
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Posted: October 24 2016 at 07:20 |
Atavachron wrote:
He has a great voice, or maybe I should say he is a great singer. I'm not even that big a fan and I can hear the greatness in his vocal ability and expression. That it's nasal and annoying to is irrelevant.
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How low the standards of singing have fallen... (my opinion of course).
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rogerthat
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Posted: October 24 2016 at 09:55 |
The T wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
He has a great voice, or maybe I should say he is a great singer. I'm not even that big a fan and I can hear the greatness in his vocal ability and expression. That it's nasal and annoying to is irrelevant.
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How low the standards of singing have fallen... (my opinion of course). |
Well, Stevie Wonder, Bon Scott, Klaus Meine, plenty of talented singers have nasal voices which some people may find annoying. I think nasality isn't such a bad thing as it is made out to be. This is rock music, after all, not classical.
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SteveG
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Posted: October 24 2016 at 11:19 |
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^Roger, there's a difference between having a screechy high voice and a nasal voice. Screechy high vocals go with hard rock and heavy metal. Nasal vocals go with nothing.
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Atavachron
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Posted: October 24 2016 at 15:55 |
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No-- you can't give an 'annoying voice pass' to guys like Geddy Lee and Jon Anderson because you recognize their talent, then turn around and not do the same for Dylan. Nasal and annoying to be sure, but also authoritative and genuine. I can't stand Bruce Dickinson's singing and ridiculous lyrics but I give him credit for having a good ear and a strong delivery.
What's being missed about Dylan's voice is its authenticity. He is a true road singer, a ramblin' man, the real deal whether you take pleasure in that or not. Not many of those left with Johnny Cash gone and guys like Lemmy dying off.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Dean
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Posted: October 24 2016 at 16:20 |
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Yes, you can. If something is annoying to the point of distraction then it is impossible to make allowances for it regardless of the talent behind it. Some people cannot give a free pass to Geddy or Jon, or Peter or Phil because they cannot listen to their singing, some people cannot listen to Mike Oldfield because they don't like his guitar tone. The whole point of music is its aural aspect (which is another reason why a Literature prize is so inappropriate), and that is more important than the lyrical and even musicological content because no one here (and I mean no one) can seriously appreciate a piece of music just by reading the manuscript score or the lyric sheet.
Recognising Dylan's talent is another matter altogether, and no one here is taking any of that away from him.
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Atavachron
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Posted: October 24 2016 at 16:28 |
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If one equally eviscerates Jon's and Geddy's and Phil's voices, sure. But when it comes to those singers, most prog fans forgive, forget, and give a wink to their friends with a cheery "That's not a lady singing, I swear!" They don't really have much choice, do they, if they want to listen to a third of the progrock cornerstone bands.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Atavachron
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Posted: October 24 2016 at 16:44 |
The T wrote:
How low the standards of singing have fallen... (my opinion of course). |
Not really; few people think, have ever thought, Dylan has or had a good voice. They didn't care because they recognized his unique offerings . I'm going past that and proclaiming his singing superior (IMO, however one qualifies that) to modern singers such as, say, Mark Knopfler, a Bob Dylan emulator if there ever was one.
Edited by Atavachron - October 24 2016 at 18:59
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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rogerthat
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Posted: October 24 2016 at 18:44 |
SteveG wrote:
^Roger, there's a difference between having a screechy high voice and a nasal voice. Screechy high vocals go with hard rock and heavy metal. Nasal vocals go with nothing. |
So are you telling me that Stevie Wonder or Bon Scott are just screechy (which they are not in the first place) and not nasal (which they absolutely are)? I think you've got Scott confused with Brian Johnson in that case. Scott clearly relied on the nasal cavity a heck of a lot as did Klaus Meine and in Stevie's case the nasality is very obvious. David is spot on about this. As these singers sing over a much larger range (octave and dynamics wise both) we let it go. In Dylan's case, it becomes more irritating because of the nature of the music itself, it's much more monotonic (for lack of a better word). By the way, Klaus does sound quite monotonic and irritating live because he becomes very flat (as in, lacking energy) and sings everything in the same level.
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Dean
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Posted: October 25 2016 at 02:22 |
Atavachron wrote:
If one equally eviscerates Jon's and Geddy's and Phil's voices, sure. But when it comes to those singers, most prog fans forgive, forget, and give a wink to their friends with a cheery "That's not a lady singing, I swear!" They don't really have much choice, do they, if they want to listen to a third of the progrock cornerstone bands.
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I did say some people cannot give a free pass to Jon or Geddy and I'd hazard a guess that most prog fans who like Yes or Rush don't find their vocals distracting or annoying. In fact if you look at the majority of popular male singers they are singing in the upper tenor range which pitches them in the lower mezzo-soprano range of "lady" singers. Dylan is high baritone to low tenor without any real technique (this lack of technique is evident when you hear him speak) and all of it in the nasal voice or with nasal resonance. Stevie Wonder (a tenor) only enters the (nasal) head voice when hitting the higher notes in his range (which admittedly is most of the time) but at least he is capable of chest singing and can manage the transition between the two with ease. [I know people claim wide vocal ranges for many singers but I tend to regard them by where they are most comfortable and where they spend most of their time so while Dylan can go from C#2 to F5, the excursions are rare (and not strictly sung), as Madan says, it's mostly "monotonic"]
But, as I said, it's the aural aspect, the aural aspect of Jon's and Geddy's vocals fits the music as though it were simply another instrument, you cannot make that claim about Dylan even when he has a full backing band because the backing music is just a vehicle for his singing. Dylan is a singer-songwriter so should be compared against other singer-songwriters.
Edited by Dean - October 25 2016 at 02:23
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SteveG
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Posted: October 25 2016 at 04:13 |
Atavachron wrote:
If one equally eviscerates Jon's and Geddy's and Phil's voices, sure. But when it comes to those singers, most prog fans forgive, forget, and give a wink to their friends with a cheery "That's not a lady singing, I swear!" They don't really have much choice, do they, if they want to listen to a third of the progrock cornerstone bands.
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Anderson and Lee sing high. Anderson is not a distraction to me. Geddy, especially early on, is. But the main problem with Dylan is that his nasal vocals are so forced that they have become a caricature. Geddy may sing like a hinge but it's genuine and not a vocal shtick. As for Knopfler, his vocals are real, and naturally, are much less nasal, if at all.
Edited by SteveG - October 25 2016 at 04:22
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SteveG
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Posted: October 25 2016 at 04:18 |
rogerthat wrote:
SteveG wrote:
^Roger, there's a difference between having a screechy high voice and a nasal voice. Screechy high vocals go with hard rock and heavy metal. Nasal vocals go with nothing. |
So are you telling me that Stevie Wonder or Bon Scott are just screechy (which they are not in the first place) and not nasal (which they absolutely are)? |
Singing through the nose and not from the back of the throat is a Dylan technique. Bon is screechy and pitches high on Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap, but not through the nose. With Wonder, I don't know where you, or others, get the notion that he's nasal. His singing, when high, is quite flat, and that can be annoying. Perhaps its time to upgrade your listening equipment if you feel that these other singers are even remotely on the same plane as Dylan.
To help you distinguish, listen to anything sung by Dave Cousins and compare it with Stevie Wonder and tell me who actually sings nasal.
Edited by SteveG - October 25 2016 at 04:36
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Dean
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Posted: October 25 2016 at 04:45 |
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^ technically it depends on where in the mask area the bulk of the resonance occurs and the timbres those areas add to the overall sound. Wonder uses a combination of throat and "front of face" (for want of a better description) which includes palate, cheek and nasal areas that adds brightness to his voice and that varies by how he places his tongue within his mouth while singing (just watch his vids). As I implied before with Dylan's speaking voice, his technique is limited to being predominately nasal cavity resonance because his tongue is comparatively inactive while he speaks and sings and that blocks throat resonance.
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Dean
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Posted: October 25 2016 at 05:07 |
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... the other thing to bear in mind is the difference between pitch and timbre as that can affect our perception of whether someone is actually singing high to just sounding like they are. A note sung with a reedy timbre will have a lot of odd harmonics where the third harmonic can be the same "volume" as the fundamental, so if someone is singing G3 this means that G5 will also be present so the combined note will sound "bright". In head-voice this means that resonance plays a key role in how the note will sound as the nasal cavity will respond more to the harmonic than the fundamental and you will perceive the G5 pitch more even though the note sung is actually G3.
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