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Genesis after 1976 and responsibility

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thief View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Genesis after 1976 and responsibility
    Posted: January 27 2017 at 08:20
In short, who's to blame for dramatic change of direction on ...And Then There Were Three and subsequent albums? I never really thought about it much, just assumed it's sort of normal after departure of Gabriel and then Hackett, most prog oriented fellas in the band.
I own a book on Genesis, read it last time five years ago and I don't think author ever mentioned specifically who made that decision... or maybe all of them simultaneously came to conclusion "let's do some mellow pop thing and cash in at last!".

Both speculations and FACTS are welcome :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2017 at 08:31
It is a very well documented fact that all three remaining members of Genesis were responsible for the change to more commercial tracks, pop prog, if you will. Post Duke, all tracks were jointly written.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zravkapt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2017 at 08:31
Originally posted by thief thief wrote:

... or maybe all of them simultaneously came to conclusion "let's do some mellow pop thing and cash in at last!"

Bingo!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Jeffro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2017 at 08:35
I know it's a sore subject for some Genesis fans but good for them for cashing in. They had their hardcore prog period and then they were able to become a very successful pop band. Even Gabriel cashed in, in the 80s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2017 at 08:39
Who's to blame? Punk rock that's who.

While I do believe there is some truth to that statement I think also they just got bored not to mention the fact that music scene was changing. What I heard is that they did shorter songs to try to get more variety on the album. 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 27 2017 at 08:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote someone_else Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2017 at 08:53
There are a number of parameters to be defined:
  • The departure of Steve Hackett had more impact than just the title of the next album: the 12-string oriented sound which Anthony Phillips invented and Steve Hackett developed went with him.
  • Zeitgeist: the rise of Punk and New Wave required a simpler and poppier standard to survive.
  • The retirement of Tony Banks's left hand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rednight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2017 at 09:05
Originally posted by thief thief wrote:

I never really thought about it much, just assumed it's sort of normal after departure of Gabriel and then Hackett, most prog oriented fellas in the band.
Banks was not as prog oriented as Gabriel and Hackett? He practically was the band's prog orientation before Hackett joined on.
"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon (?) it." - Eno
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2017 at 09:22
Nothing went on inside the band without  without Tony's consent... so those blaming on Phil (and to a lesser extent on Mike) may want to rethink their thoughts
Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

There are a number of parameters to be defined:
  • 1 The departure of Steve Hackett had more impact than just the title of the next album: the 12-string oriented sound which Anthony Phillips invented and Steve Hackett developed went with him.
  • 2 Zeitgeist: the rise of Punk and New Wave required a simpler and poppier standard to survive.
  • 3 The retirement of Tony Banks's left hand.
 
1 Rutherford played 12 strings during both the Phillips and the Hackett line-ups
2 this is plainly explained in the first song of ATTWT's lyrics
LOL
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2017 at 09:46
Originally posted by Rednight Rednight wrote:

Originally posted by thief thief wrote:

I never really thought about it much, just assumed it's sort of normal after departure of Gabriel and then Hackett, most prog oriented fellas in the band.
Banks was not as prog oriented as Gabriel and Hackett? He practically was the band's prog orientation before Hackett joined on.

I guess you're right. They couldn't reach their prog heights without Banks composition skills and solid playing.
But I still assume he wasn't as much interested (not talking about talent here) in pure 'progressive' sound in late 70s, while Hackett recorded Spectral Mornings and Gabriel gave us Melt (very ambitious piece of music).
And I think it was Gabriel most responsible for their Auld English-mythic-Edwardian-mystic atmosphere, which suited progressive rock very well :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2017 at 10:17
Banks was as much responsible as steering Genesis in a pop direction as anyone else was in the band at the time. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote infandous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2017 at 10:38
I think the 3 man Genesis felt they WERE progressing...........becoming more modern, honing their compositions, gaining acclaim and popularity.  What musician doesn't want to be successful?  Even after I got into prog and starting writing prog songs, I dreamed of a time that people would love it again and make me a millionaire.  I was, of course, hopelessly naive.  Sort of like people wishing Genesis would have stayed a prog band Wink  Had they continued making challenging music, they'd be considered a "cult" band, even among prog fans and probably would have packed it in by the end of the 70's.

So yeah, from everything I've heard it wasn't really a decision so much as all members wanting to move in a more streamlined direction.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2017 at 10:45
However you cut it on the cookie sheet, I really like ...ATTWT!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2017 at 11:04
I don't "blame" anyone, meaning in the group. They had the right to go out and make oodles of money and become world famous after PG and SH left the band. If that meant writing more accessible songs to the main stream and more FM friendly then good for them I say!

Punk probably, but just a more musical change in general..people wanted music to party to and guys wanted to get into girls pants, sorry listening to Suppers Ready or Return of the Giant Hogweed does not do that.
LOL


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2017 at 13:03
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

However you cut it on the cookie sheet, I really like ...ATTWT!


Me too. Definitely one of their most under rated albums(along with the very first one).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Rednight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2017 at 13:34
^Apart from Swallow You Swallow Me.
"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon (?) it." - Eno
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2017 at 14:15
Elephant in the room, do you think Disco had an influence beside Punk?
Genesis far too sedate to play at sweaty Disco pace, but direct riffs. "Turn It On Again" is more direct and snappier than the more involving Firth of Fifth.
It was the dumfdumfdumf beat that killed a lot of Rock more than Punk seems to.

I think Disco was also trying to invade Genesis on their decision.
I don't regret them doing it as I think "Tonight, Tonight, Tonight" is a masterpiece.

Edited by AZF - January 27 2017 at 14:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2017 at 14:48
Originally posted by Rednight Rednight wrote:

^Apart from Swallow You Swallow Me.
 
Finish this title: "Deep in the Mother____." LOL
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hercules Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2017 at 17:08
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Nothing went on inside the band without  without Tony's consent... so those blaming on Phil (and to a lesser extent on Mike) may want to rethink their thoughts 

Anyone who has seen the documentary on Genesis will appreciate how correct this is. Banks came across as a talented but slightly unpleasant dictator.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2017 at 17:14
^ Yup, and that was a great documentary.....


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2017 at 19:16
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Who's to blame? Punk rock that's who.

Yeah.  No.

The unsettling fact is that they'd grown up and no longer wanted to stretch things to their musical limits, and wanted increasingly to get to the point.   Being only three may've made that an easier transition, but it had little to do with punk, disco, or heavy rock, any one of which could be incorrectly blamed for the musical and cultural changes during the late 70s/80s.   They in fact progressed, as did Gabriel, both contributing to the palette (and palates) of the time.





Edited by Atavachron - January 27 2017 at 19:18
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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