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twosteves
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Posted: January 27 2017 at 21:55 |
Banks and Hackett were the heart and soul of Genesis---Hackett's contributions were major. In spite of what Banks has to say. Steve's playing made the songs true prog. On every album after he left there is great material and great potential for greatness but without Hackett none of the albums are as extraordinary. Very good but there are songs on all the albums that would have benefited with Hackett songs instead of the mediocre one's that appear.
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2005
Location: Olympus Mons
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Points: 15916
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Posted: January 27 2017 at 22:18 |
verslibre wrote:
Rednight wrote:
^Apart from Swallow You Swallow Me. |
Finish this title: "Deep in the Mother____." |
That's the funniest thing I've seen for ages (apart from my douche face......) Ba dum tss...........LMAO
Edited by Tom Ozric - January 27 2017 at 22:19
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HackettFan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2012
Location: Oklahoma
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Points: 7946
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Posted: January 27 2017 at 23:50 |
twosteves wrote:
Banks and Hackett were the heart and soul of Genesis---Hackett's contributions were major. In spite of what Banks has to say. Steve's playing made the songs true prog. On every album after he left there is great material and great potential for greatness but without Hackett none of the albums are as extraordinary. Very good but there are songs on all the albums that would have benefited with Hackett songs instead of the mediocre one's that appear. |
Definitely so. It wasn't the same band anymore. Hackett's contribution was huge irrespective of Banks' petulant leadership. The group needed five and later four sometimes conflicting opinions for its brilliance. But they could've done better. Hackett did better with Please Don't Touch and then came out with a wonderful masterpiece in Spectral Mornings, which was just as good as a Gabriel era album and as Prog as it gets with the range of styles he combined. Who was responsible for the new Genesis direction? Banks, Collins and Rutherford. All three. Their Pop music was no sort of progression. They didn't bring anything new to the table; they just reflected the mainstream interest in music of the time. And really it was so unnecessary. They could have mixed it up with Pop stuff on one side and more in-depth stuff on the other, but was not to be.
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A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
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Points: 19627
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Posted: January 28 2017 at 01:23 |
Hercules wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Nothing went on inside the band without without Tony's consent... so those blaming on Phil (and to a lesser extent on Mike) may want to rethink their thoughts |
Anyone who has seen the documentary on Genesis will appreciate how correct this is. Banks came across as a talented but slightly unpleasant dictator. |
And slightly frustrated as well, since he's the only not to have made a fortune in his solo career Collins & Gabe were regular charts visitors Hackett had his GTR and that UK TV theme raking in the dough Mike had his Mechanics Ant Phillips' album Side apparently sold quite well and had also a theme I'd say that Hackett's leaving Gen was more than partly Bank's doing - Hackett started getting frustrated when the band started to give songs individual credit in Trick. And he only had his name twice in (Entangled & Endos), when he was finding ideas like crazy, following the making of Voyage - Voyage was most likely a frustration for Banks: along with Gabe, he's the only Genesis member not playing on it. While the band was in danger of folding, Hackett was busy with his own project, and Tony probably thought he used up a bunch of ideas that could've been used for the band *** . So Tony most likely willfully limited Hackett's input in Trick
- Confronted with Steve's frustration, Banks gives much more space to Hackett on W&W, but, while it's a lot, it's too late. And even if Hackett gets a big share, Banks still limits one more idea of his by asking Rutherford to double the length of that atrocious YOSW (3 minutes was more than enough for that turd, but it made more than double) - Hackett leaves the band during the elaboration of the PDT album (no Gen member on it... probably due to Tony's insistance).... except for dummer Thompson.
***: this was also an issue in Floyd, as both Gilmour and Wright used up their ideas in their 77/78 solo albums and kept nothing for Floyd, then complained about Waters' taking over musical direction. The same Waters that was the only one keeping the Floyd boat afloat (with their manager) as the band was bankrupt (bad investments) between 76 and 79.
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Manuel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 09 2007
Location: United States
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Points: 12410
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Posted: January 28 2017 at 06:32 |
I recall watching a documentary on Showtime, where Banks admits it was his idea to turn into pop, practically forcing Hackett to leave the band, after Gabriel's departure.
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thief
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 21 2015
Location: Poland
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Points: 1546
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Posted: January 28 2017 at 07:58 |
Lots of info here, keep it coming.
I'd like to make it clear that the purpose of this thread is to understand Genesis decision making and 'what was going on' at the time, not to criticise post-Hackett era. So please don't take offense if you're a fan of Abacab and the rest :)
I find comparisons to tensions inside Pink Floyd and mentions of Tony Banks 'dictatorship' quite interesting. I've heard/read it somewhere, but it's still vague. I mean, if you take a look at King Crimson things are clear: Robert Fripp dominated the band in its early stages because everyone left this ship, plus he was responsible for most of the music, especially after Ian MacDonald's departure. But Banks dominating Genesis? Why so? Was he leaps and bounds ahead of Gabriel or Hackett when it comes to importance, or talent? I don't think so.
I really wonder why.
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twosteves
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Posted: January 28 2017 at 08:14 |
Banks may have been the dictator but I don't think he brought pop into the band---I think Collins did that---and Banks loved the success and went with it---he always like good pop----either Beatles or American soul music---but most of the proggy songs on albums post Hackett were written by Banks. It's been stated many time---Hacketts material was voted down by the other three not just Banks. This frustrated Hackett. His first solo was a huge success as successful as Genesis so maybe he felt overlooked. He was an outsider compared to the bromance Tony and Mike had from childhood.
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zravkapt
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 12 2010
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Posted: January 28 2017 at 08:50 |
twosteves wrote:
Banks may have been the dictator but I don't think he brought pop into the band---I think Collins did that
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And that's the myth this thread has been dispelling. What did Collins have to do with their first album or songs like "I Know What I Like," "Counting Out Time" and "Your Own Special Way"?
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Magma America Great Make Again
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
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Posted: January 28 2017 at 09:04 |
Somewhere I read that Collins proposed the 3 go all instrumental also, maybe more along the lines of a jazz/fusion/rock band.
I think at some point all prog bands get tired of writing and playing long, drawn out songs about countries and kings/queens and all that, dungeons and dragons. At some point they all grow up and realize you can't keep trying to think up these kinds of lyrics as a mid 30yr old. It's like staying in the 4th grade for ever.....
They progressed and changed course and it worked, I think they had a ton of fun doing it too....and made gobs of money.
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SteveG
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Posted: January 28 2017 at 10:30 |
zravkapt wrote:
thief wrote:
... or maybe all of them simultaneously came to conclusion "let's do some mellow pop thing and cash in at last!"
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Bingo! |
There seems be a warped perception by the general public that the artist's (any artist's) record label was some kind of benign entity that merely produced vinyl, tapes or CDs on behalf of the music artist and had little power over them.
That was certainly not the case in the late 70's. Only artists like Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder and split up Beatles had that kind of artistic control that was afforded to them on the basis of a business contract that stated so. Read the lyrics to "Down and Out" below: "Down And Out" Its good to be here! How've you been? Check my bags boy! Where's my room? Gotta sit on the phone, that's my game, Keep up the pressure all the way!
I don't want to beat about the bush but none of us are getting any younger. There's people out there who could take your place. A more commercial view! A fresher face!
I need a shower, take a nap I'll meet you in the bar, must have a rap. There's a lot on the line, a lot to say. And there's something I must tell you today.
You and I both knew the score, you can't go on like this for ever. So its with regret I tell you now that from this moment on, you're on your own!
I don't talk round corners, right between the eyes. If you're slow they'll run past you, Stand tall, see them falling over. I walk a straight line, right between the eyes. But just show me the door, show me someone who'll do it better.
The drinks are on me, be my guest. Smoke a cigar? Take the best. Don't hedge your bets, we can make a deal, Got it in your pocket, how do you feel?
So glad that's over, now you know. But I'm only acting under orders. And looking down on you from way up here. You've gotta sink or swim, get off the floor!
I don't talk round corners, right between the eyes. If you're slow they'll run past you. Stand tall, see them falling over. I walk a straight line, right between the eyes. But just show me the door, show me someone who'll do it better.
I've heard this speech given to artists by greasy record executives and label A&R reps too many times in the late seventies and early eighties. Remember, that was the age when a major record label that was built on the success of one single prog artist, Virgin Records and Mike Oldfield respectively, signed the next big commercial thing that they thought was coming, namely The Sex Pistols.
Artists are often rumored to makes deals with the devil in American folklore. Well, who do you suppose that devil was?
Edited by SteveG - January 28 2017 at 10:33
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questionsneverknown
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 22 2009
Location: Ultima Thule
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Points: 602
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Posted: January 28 2017 at 13:00 |
It's funny how often Genesis's shift to pop was blamed on Collins when clearly all in the band were looking to explore new directions. In one interview, Collins talks about how much at the time he loved Weather Report and was ecstatic to learn that the guys in that band loved "Follow You Follow Me." It's really easy for us on this site to assume prog=difficult, pop=easy, but good artists are always looking to evolve, and sometimes nothing's easier than to write a song in 13/4 and nothing's harder than to write a song that might appeal to a broad audience. The shift in a pop direction isn't by definition a cynical move (though tons of pop is definitely a purely cynical product). Having said that I love the fact that "Turn it On Again" managed to be an amazing pop song and maintain a "difficult" time signature.
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The damage that we do is just so powerfully strong we call it love
The damage that we do just goes on and on and on but not long enough.
--Robyn Hitchcock
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tdfloyd
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 06 2008
Location: USA
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Points: 966
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Posted: January 28 2017 at 15:56 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Hercules wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Nothing went on inside the band without without Tony's consent... so those blaming on Phil (and to a lesser extent on Mike) may want to rethink their thoughts |
Anyone who has seen the documentary on Genesis will appreciate how correct this is. Banks came across as a talented but slightly unpleasant dictator. |
And slightly frustrated as well, since he's the only not to have made a fortune in his solo career Collins & Gabe were regular charts visitors Hackett had his GTR and that UK TV theme raking in the dough Mike had his Mechanics Ant Phillips' album Side apparently sold quite well and had also a theme
I'd say that Hackett's leaving Gen was more than partly Bank's doing
- Hackett started getting frustrated when the band started to give songs individual credit in Trick. And he only had his name twice in (Entangled & Endos), when he was finding ideas like crazy, following the making of Voyage - Voyage was most likely a frustration for Banks: along with Gabe, he's the only Genesis member not playing on it. While the band was in danger of folding, Hackett was busy with his own project, and Tony probably thought he used up a bunch of ideas that could've been used for the band *** . So Tony most likely willfully limited Hackett's input in Trick - Confronted with Steve's frustration, Banks gives much more space to Hackett on W&W, but, while it's a lot, it's too late. And even if Hackett gets a big share, Banks still limits one more idea of his by asking Rutherford to double the length of that atrocious YOSW (3 minutes was more than enough for that turd, but it made more than double) - Hackett leaves the band during the elaboration of the PDT album (no Gen member on it... probably due to Tony's insistance).... except for dummer Thompson.
***: this was also an issue in Floyd, as both Gilmour and Wright used up their ideas in their 77/78 solo albums and kept nothing for Floyd, then complained about Waters' taking over musical direction. The same Waters that was the only one keeping the Floyd boat afloat (with their manager) as the band was bankrupt (bad investments) between 76 and 79.
| Don't think comparing Banks to Waters is appropriate. Waters seemed to want total control. Gilmour is all over Animals and The Wall and only has a couple of credits. It is something that Gilmour has occasionally complained about in the past. Those solos were his, Waters didn't write them out for him. Some of Wrights best playing was on Animals. That 2 plus minute intro on Sheep is mostly all him. I would imagine Waters didn't write it out and instead said I need something here, what do you have. How does Wright not get a credit? Genesis spread the credits around. I feel that the writers got the credit. TOTT is my fav Genesis album but it could have used a little less Banks and more Hackett. SH was not around for the beginning of the recording sessions as he was out taking care of SH and his solo album. But there is no doubt that Banks was the leader and when push came to shove, his stuff got worked on. As mentioned before, Genesis had taken several shots at the single market and had not been successful. YOSW tried to be a hit single but then stretched it so long that doesn't fit that market. While not prog at all , I always liked FYFM. YOSW was a Rutherford song and the lyrics to FYFM were his too. So after all of these years of whipping Phil, maybe we should now stone Rutherford!
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verslibre
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 01 2004
Location: CA
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Posted: January 28 2017 at 16:37 |
^Didn't Dave record a bunch of Roger's basslines for him, too?
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twosteves
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 01 2007
Location: NYC/Rhinebeck
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Points: 4070
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Posted: January 28 2017 at 17:56 |
zravkapt wrote:
twosteves wrote:
Banks may have been the dictator but I don't think he brought pop into the band---I think Collins did that
|
And that's the myth this thread has been dispelling. What did Collins have to do with their first album or songs like "I Know What I Like," "Counting Out Time" and "Your Own Special Way"? |
other than Special way---these songs aren't pop songs--but I thought I know what I like was a Hackett collins riff-Phil and Mike had huge pop song hits---Banks couldn't really write a good pop song (check out Congo on CAS lol)Banks had no solo pop hits but he tried to toy with it a little with The Fugitive ---not very successfully---On post Hackett albums Banks wrote Burning Rope, Heathaze much of Guide Vocal and big prog keys at end of Duke---much of DODO and Me and Sarah Jane both as prog as that album gets---Home by the sea---Domino---Fading Lights---these are the prog highlights of these albums and Banks wrote most of them---
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 19627
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Posted: January 28 2017 at 17:56 |
thief wrote:
I find comparisons to tensions inside
Pink Floyd and mentions of Tony Banks 'dictatorship' quite interesting.
I've heard/read it somewhere, but it's still vague. I mean, if you take a
look at King Crimson things are clear: Robert Fripp dominated the band
in its early stages because everyone left this ship, plus he was responsible for most of the music,
especially after Ian MacDonald's departure. But Banks dominating
Genesis? Why so? Was he leaps and bounds ahead of Gabriel or Hackett
when it comes to importance, or talent? I don't think so. |
Banks
didn't dominate the way Fripp or Ian Anderson did... And IMHO, Waters
took control of a ship that no-one else seemed to have the courage to
save from perdition... As I said, Gilmour & Wright used all their
ideas on their solo albums Fripp is different... in ITCOTCK, he's a minor composer (the acoustic passages of the title track and that's it)... the debut is a McD/Lake album... Can't say much else about Poseidon too. The
three tracks on the A-side are a near-perfect copy of Court (and that
was Lke/McD tracks), Cat Food is again not Fripp and the final piece is
of Holtz... basically Fripp wrote the Peace pieces on Poseidon. Sooooo this brings us to Lizard: the first real Fripp album,
since he's the only one writing all of the music, but he gets miffed
that Sinfield gets as much as he does, since Pete is the author (while Robert is the composer)
verslibre wrote:
^Didn't Dave record a bunch of Roger's basslines for him, too? |
seems to be the case (notably on Sheep), especially when the bass used was fretless... And Dave doubled up on bass on One Of These Days But Waters had to reproduce the lines on stage
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 00:51 |
SteveG wrote:
zravkapt wrote:
thief wrote:
... or maybe all of them simultaneously came to conclusion "let's do some mellow pop thing and cash in at last!"
|
Bingo! | There seems be a warped perception by the general public that the artist's (any artist's) record label was some kind of benign entity that merely produced vinyl, tapes or CDs on behalf of the music artist and had little power over them.
That was certainly not the case in the late 70's. Only artists like Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder and split up Beatles had that kind of artistic control that was afforded to them on the basis of a business contract that stated so. Read the lyrics to "Down and Out" below: "Down And Out" Its good to be here! How've you been? Check my bags boy! Where's my room? Gotta sit on the phone, that's my game, Keep up the pressure all the way!
I don't want to beat about the bush but none of us are getting any younger. There's people out there who could take your place. A more commercial view! A fresher face!
I need a shower, take a nap I'll meet you in the bar, must have a rap. There's a lot on the line, a lot to say. And there's something I must tell you today.
You and I both knew the score, you can't go on like this for ever. So its with regret I tell you now that from this moment on, you're on your own!
I don't talk round corners, right between the eyes. If you're slow they'll run past you, Stand tall, see them falling over. I walk a straight line, right between the eyes. But just show me the door, show me someone who'll do it better.
The drinks are on me, be my guest. Smoke a cigar? Take the best. Don't hedge your bets, we can make a deal, Got it in your pocket, how do you feel?
So glad that's over, now you know. But I'm only acting under orders. And looking down on you from way up here. You've gotta sink or swim, get off the floor!
I don't talk round corners, right between the eyes. If you're slow they'll run past you. Stand tall, see them falling over. I walk a straight line, right between the eyes. But just show me the door, show me someone who'll do it better.
I've heard this speech given to artists by greasy record executives and label A&R reps too many times in the late seventies and early eighties. Remember, that was the age when a major record label that was built on the success of one single prog artist, Virgin Records and Mike Oldfield respectively, signed the next big commercial thing that they thought was coming, namely The Sex Pistols.
Artists are often rumored to makes deals with the devil in American folklore. Well, who do you suppose that devil was?
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Great post.
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Tillerman88
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 31 2015
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 495
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 07:59 |
tdfloyd wrote:
Waters seemed to want total control. Gilmour is all over Animals and The Wall and only has a couple of credits. It is something that Gilmour has occasionally complained about in the past. Those solos were his, Waters didn't write them out for him. Some of Wrights best playing was on Animals. That 2 plus minute intro on Sheep is mostly all him. I would imagine Waters didn't write it out and instead said I need something here, what do you have. How does Wright not get a credit? |
Just one more time a bit off-topic, if I may......... Frankly, more than casually I see Floyd fans forgetting how such a sensible guy Rick Wright was, and the fact that he was not such an egocentric member as Waters nor of such strong a character as is Gilmour or even Mason. This fact alone put clearly on evidence how overlooked was his essential contribution to the band as a whole, and i've always felt his greatness very present, especially when his sounds most seemed overshadowed by the other members works, that's exactly when his subtleties took the 'laurel'. . ..
Edited by Tillerman88 - January 29 2017 at 07:59
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CapnBearbossa
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Location: Baltimore
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 12:24 |
"Blame" implies someone ruined Genesis post Wind&Wuthering , or whenever, and I don't really buy into that idea. I think pretty much every Genesis album has a lot to offer.
If you want a scapegoat for why they diverged from prog however, then blame ... punk.
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Will higher mighty force redeem the one who dropped the moral compass, failed to fulfill the dream? -Ian Anderson
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twosteves
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 01 2007
Location: NYC/Rhinebeck
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Points: 4070
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 17:58 |
I read that just like Squonk was a song directed at Gabriels departure Down and Out was directed at Hackett's departure---
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Jeffro
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2014
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2051
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 18:51 |
I'm watching this right now. Good commentary by everyone involved
Edited by Jeffro - January 29 2017 at 18:53
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