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S.Wilson: "Rap now is more innovative than Rock"

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Prog-jester View Drop Down
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    Posted: July 30 2017 at 08:11
Source: https://metalwani.com/2017/07/steven-wilson-todays-rap-is-more-innovative-than-todays-rock.html

Before you start throwing tantrum, please don't read "better" instead of "more innovative". Also please bear in mind that rap is 25-30 years younger than rock. Also please remember that trap music (with these annoying rattling hi-hats) is the most mainstream-friendly trend in hip-hop these days - so when you say all rap is crap (having heard only coupla Migos or Future tracks), it's like saying rock sucks after listening to Nickelback or Stone Sour.

Again, not talking about the quality of music or the zeitgestian social aspects - rock as a musical genre is at his lowest these days. Every new band heavily relies on nostalgia, but even chart-topping sensations like Royal Blood are struggling to fill a decent hall. Seeing Guns'n'Roses making tons of money off their reunion tour just confirms that: people would rather pay to hear 25-30 yrs old songs from the original performers, than support younger bands influenced by those. In this light still calling progressive rock a "progressive" genre is simply pointless, but that's whole another story, amirite...

Back on topic: feel free to hate hip-hop, but this is where truly interesting things are happening right now, on every level. Check these guys, for example:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 09:30
In terms of innovation, yes, the modern trend of music has a whole world to discover, just as rock did back in the late 60s/early70s, but in terms of quality, the story is quite different. Maybe because sampling is now the trend, so not many musicians are part of your band, but a lot of dancers and choreographers, making things a little dull. If you add the fact that most popular music is quite simplistic, makes things quite different, giving rock music the edge, in terms of orchestration, performance (of the music, not of the show), composition, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prog-jester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 10:33
Originally posted by Manuel Manuel wrote:

Maybe because sampling is now the trend

well it's been in hip-hop basics since day one, but it could be used very clever (unlike in 90% of mainstream music nowadays). Also some legendary beatmakers, like J Dilla and Madlib, are well-known prog rock fans



This Run The Jewels tracks samples Gentle Giant's "Knots" (not easy to notice, but still)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 11:06
I absolutely loathe hip hop. Always have, always will

This is merely a publicity puff interview, and means absolutely nothing. Most so-called MOBO stuff is derivative sh*te.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ForestFriend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 11:29
That New Apple Taste song is quite cool, although it sounds more like jazz fusion/prog with a rapper rather than hip-hop. Pretty neat, although I'm wondering how it's "truly interesting"; didn't seem particularly innovative. Genre x + genre y (etc.) has already been a well established formula for years. So many boundaries have been broken in popular music, that I think it's going to be damn near impossible to get anything that's truly "progressive".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Junges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 11:31
He is sh*tting through his mouth.

If he thinks Radiohead and Arcade Fire are the most innovative rock bands, I can only laugh.

Unsurprisingly, he thinks he's "carrying the torch" of innovation. Apparently he hasn't learned from his arrogance through the years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scruffydragon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 11:43
I can remember Hip Hop when it first hit these shores many years ago. Sugar hill gang et all from the Bronx side of the good ole USA. At first many of us (young ones) thought it was a credible form of music until the chart bands like Wham and Blondie jumped on the bandwagon, Then it lost all credibility and became laughable to a good few of us. We quickly left the scene and found other things more exciting like Rock and Metal.
I know Rap like Rock will keep evolving and eventually will fuse to form new forms of music together if they have not already done so,  in a way they are both Innovative forms of music. Neither one is more innovative then the other.
 
However now that I am a lot older,I am sorry but I really find rap  sounding rather flat vocally and monotonous at times. Ok it's come a long way since Sugar Hill Gang, Afrika Bambaataa, etc.. But it's not for me.And I will not listen to any music that has Rap vocals.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prog-jester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 12:48
Originally posted by ForestFriend ForestFriend wrote:

Genre x + genre y (etc.) has already been a well established formula for years

yeah, like psychedelia + pop music + dragons = prog, problem solved. Why then there's this whole website exists, again?

And even in rock music there are combinations people haven't been thinking of before: anyone up for math-surf-garage-prog?..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prog-jester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 12:54
Originally posted by Junges Junges wrote:

If he thinks Radiohead and Arcade Fire are the most innovative rock bands, I can only laugh.

Alright, what are your picks then? Not being petty, couldn't think myself of a post-2010 rock band that blew my socks off in terms of innovation (apart from these guys). The Mars Volta started in 2002, and while they're definitely "new", their sound was a by-the-numbers case of "x + y = z": basically throw some King Crimson into Led Zeppelin, and there you go
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 14:19
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

I absolutely loathe hip hop. Always have, always will

This is merely a publicity puff interview, and means absolutely nothing. Most so-called MOBO stuff is derivative sh*te.

Here, here! I am in entire agreement. I despise a medium that basically lifts prereleased material wholesale and presents it in digital snippets as the basis of an alleged composition. It's dishonest and it's not really music.
And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Queen By-Tor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 14:25
Between RTJ3 and Tyler, The Creator's Flower Boy I can definitely see that trend starting.

But, keep in mind, we are in a transition era where Hip Hop is overtaking rock as North America's dominant musical taste.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Junges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 14:40
I lost my post because of the error that often shows up when you try to post something. The captcha.

My picks don't matter. I can say that 99% of the RIO bands are light-years ahead of bands like Radiohead or Arcade Fire or the like. I don't think they are innovative at all.


Edited by Junges - July 30 2017 at 14:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 16:00
Originally posted by Junges Junges wrote:

I can say that 99% of the RIO bands are light-years ahead of bands like Radiohead or Arcade Fire or the like. I don't think they are innovative at all.

I am looking forward to GY!BE's new album this year. If we are talking breaking boundaries and innovation, I would take one GY!BE or Kayo Dot over any hip-hop cruddity. I mean, really, listen to something with the sheer power of "Peasantry or 'Light! Inside of Light!" from their last album in 2015



I hear Middle-Eastern Motifs and Western symphony mixed in with King Crimson and even a bit of Dick Dale's "Misirlou" at a distortion level that would make Neil Young proud. It's visceral, intense and profound -- without words -- and it doesn't require the type of hokum braggadocio and doggerel verse that rappers mistake for poetics. And it is also beyond Radiohead and Arcade Fire as far as mature and directed composition.
And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prog-jester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 16:00
Originally posted by Junges Junges wrote:

I can say that 99% of the RIO bands are light-years ahead of bands like Radiohead or Arcade Fire or the like.

huh, RIO...it's 70s, not post-2010. It's been done and overdone hundred times, much as prog these days is a mere term - there's nothing progressive in repeating what Genesis or Floyd did 40 years ago
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prog-jester Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 16:04
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

I mean, really, listen to something with the sheer power of "Peasantry or 'Light! Inside of Light!" from their last album in 2015
Powerful - yes. Innovative - not much, mainly because the returned GY!BE are repeating themselves over and over. You could've told me this is an unreleased Silver Mt Zion track circa 2005, and I, an avid GY!BE/ASMZ fan (check my reviews!), would believe you - because it sounds way too ordinary for GY!BE

Edited by Prog-jester - July 30 2017 at 16:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hercules Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 16:46
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

I absolutely loathe hip hop. Always have, always will

This is merely a publicity puff interview, and means absolutely nothing. Most so-called MOBO stuff is derivative sh*te.

Seconded. And thirded.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 17:31
Rap has been more innovative than rock for quite some time.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Larkstongue41 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 18:28
Plain wrong (I love hip hop btw). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Junges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 19:56
Originally posted by Prog-jester Prog-jester wrote:

Originally posted by Junges Junges wrote:

I can say that 99% of the RIO bands are light-years ahead of bands like Radiohead or Arcade Fire or the like.

huh, RIO...it's 70s, not post-2010. It's been done and overdone hundred times, much as prog these days is a mere term - there's nothing progressive in repeating what Genesis or Floyd did 40 years ago
Huh, Hip-hop... it's also 70's.

Classical music, jazz, blues, metal, avant-garde, etc, etc have also been done hundreds of times. Should we stop playing those genres altogether just because "they don't innovate as much as I like to"? Genres are born and they evolve and keep evolving.

You are confusing progressive (the genre) with progressive (the word). This confusion is rather new. I've only heard it recently. Progressive is a musical genre that mixes rock music with jazz or blues or classical music or whatever. I think you are familiar with the definition. It doesn't mean it HAS to be progressive (the word). Do you have to be popular to play pop music? Because that's what "pop" means. If a band plays prog (the genre), they are prog (the genre), regardless if they copy what the bands did in the 70s. The same with any other genre. It doesn't matter if people that make jazz today copy what people did in the 30s, 40s, 50s or whatever, they still play jazz, as a genre.

To be progressive (the word) is impossible. But I already had this discussion before, so I will copy+paste:

There are countless bands that play prog-rock or prog metal or some other subgenre of prog that maintained their sound throughout their whole careers. Does that mean they are not progressive? I don't think so. This idea that you are only progressive if you never stay in only one genre is fairly new and it is a made-up thing.

But let's say you are right. How much do you have to change in order to be considered truly progressive? To what extent? Is there a machine that can measure it? Where do you draw the line? How much "change" is enough and who is the judge to evaluate it? Do you have to totally reinvent your sound over and over again? Even if you do, it is impossible. Even if you make a pop album, then a jazz album, then an avant-garde album, even if you invent a new genre and keep changing, there's a limit, isn't there? And your identity is there no matter what genre you play. You'll end up repeating something you already did, sooner or later. So it is impossible to be truly, literally progressive.

Musical genres, musical notes and melodies are limited. If you could live 5 thousand years and you released one album per year, someway down the line you would repeat yourself. Then you wouldn't be progressive anymore...

It really doesn't matter how much you try to be authentic and create something new. You have influences, inspirations, you are born and raised in a certain environment and that shapes who you are and what you will play. Whether you listen to In the Court of the Crimson King or The Power to Believe or Red, it doesn't matter. Fripp is Fripp, he has his style and you can clearly recognize his playing. If you could change who you are and transform into a new person constantly, losing all your memories and your experiences, then, and then only you could be progressive, but, again, only to the extent that music allows you and only for a certain period of time. Sooner or later, you would repeat yourself.

And as a side note.. I really don't understand this attitude that says that bands HAVE TO innovate otherwise they shouldn't be considered good or that they have less value..


Edited by Junges - July 30 2017 at 20:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2017 at 20:59
^ They don't have to innovate to be considered good (I think of AC/DC).   But a genre does have to move forward, or at least move to continue to develop and, in a way, live.   So it's a little surprising when prog fans take issue with that point.   Music styles are like certain shark species: if they're not moving in a forward direction, they stagnate and can die

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