YESESIS wrote: Thanks for all the responses so far everyone, and particularly all the information.. I just did some research on my own and I will NEVER listen to Magma again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magma_(band) The "Controversy" section

I think it’s a bunch of crap… of course I could be wrong but let’s see.

Vander thinks the African people are a bunch of degenerates? Where is the link to this interview so it can be verified?  What about his admiration and affection towards John Coltrane?  He even dedicated an exquisite record to John Coltrane –  JOHN COLTRANE L'HOMME SUPREME

 

Vander "had swastika flags all over his bedroom and pictures of Hitler and would leap up and do kind of imitation Hitler speeches in the middle of his drum solo"

Any pictures of his room?  Any videos of his supposed speeches during the drum solo?  I guess his marriage to a Jewish lady is a just cover-up.

The swastika has been severely perverted. The swastika symbol is thousands of years old and was used by different cultures all over the world.  In Buddhism it is still a sacred symbol.

YESESIS wrote:  I just did some research on my own and I will NEVER listen to Magma again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magma_(band) The "Controversy" section

pffff... Vander could be a Trump supporter and Ohio Nazi if it made him happy....

see man.. you simply can't trust Wiki... it didn't even mention the affair his wife had with a certain smoking hot DC area stud who was in his own right a internet forum star, occasional prog fan, who LOVES Magma and thinks VDGG is everything that 'prog hater' is right about. 

Edited by micky - August 26 2017 at 11:21

Regarding the controversy:

Christian Vander loved jazz, black musicians, and adored John Coltrane. He has composed at least one homage to his music. His jazz band have covered lots of Coltrane. he could still be racist while liking and paying homage to black music, but he has spoken of how much Coltrane and other black jazz artists were an inspiration to his music and his life.

I can believe that Vander collected Nazi memorabilia and had a fascination with it. The debut album has a swastika on it and the sort of German eagle on it with the talents reaching down on screaming people, but it hardly seems an homage to NAZIism, as it's a scene of terror that implies evil dictatorship. It seems clear to me that he drew on Nazi tropes and the the Teutonic mythology and music (Wagner) that they drew on, and Nazi preoccupations to create the Kobaia mythology. Kobaian, the artificial language of Magma sounds very Teutonic, draws on Wagnerian opera, as well as Karl Orff, and Naziism to tell the story of Kobaia. In "Stoah" off Kobaia it sounds like Vander is parodying Hitler; it's not flattering with vanders screechy stentorian voice. it's positively ugly. Yes, he imitated Hitler speeches, but part of the Kobaian mythology is that there was a time in their civilization of hate, and that is the sort of hateful dictator of the story he told. When you're writing in a made-up language you have to make reference points that people get to tell a story. Making himself sound like Hitler makes it easier for the audience to get. There also is a time of love in Kobaia mythology. So, once again the Nazi stuff is part of telling a story, and method actors who play Nazis might also keep Nazi memorabilia to inspire the character.

Drawing inspiration from something and being fascinated by something is not the same as admiring it (especially when doing it for artistic reasons). I have a very good Iranian friend who is a professor of history and has written many books who is fascinated with Nazi Germany, but I know that doesn't make him a Nazi. Similarly, one could say that just because Vander loves black music does not mean he admires blacks, except he does admire black musicians and I've never heard anyone claim that he admired Hitler.

As for the "degenerates" comment, I'd have to hear the context in the interview to comment on it. There are people that I would describe as degenerates from all around the world. He might have been referring to specific corrupt individuals or groups in Africa and India despite it saying in the Wikipedia article that he was referring to the people of those countries as degenerates, and it may also have been hyperbole in a specific context. He may have misspoken and meant something else, who knows, or it may have been a phase of his when I was angry at things going on in those parts of the world,or the effect that certain peoples from those countries were having on France.

I find people being taken out of context or misunderstanding the point all the time by certain journalists.

To me, though, what matters if if I like the music, and even if he held some controversial views at one time, that doesn't mean that he feels the same at this time. I wonder if some Nazis would accuse Magma of cultural appropriation?

Incidentally, Christian Vander's wife was born of Polish immigrants, and the Germans were not kind to the Polish. Vander's step-dead was a jazz musician and grew up listening to jazz and idolized black musicians such as John Coltrane and Miles Davis, and has said that they inspire him every day of his life. He heaps praise and thanks on them, and considers listening to such music to be a very spiritual experience. SO, no, I don't think of him as a racist even if he has had some fascination with Nazi culture. Such fascination, as I said, does not mean that you are not appalled by it (in fact the fascination many have with it is because aspects of it are so appalling and you wonder how this could have happened). It does make for good story-telling material.

Sorry, but to decide never to listen to Magma again because of that section in Wikipedia (a site that anyone can write in and universities commonly discourage for research) seems like a knee-jerk reaction. Keep an open mind, and open ears, just not so open that your brains, and ear drums, fall out.
By the way, I wrote this long post quickly and have trouble reading these small text boxes that you compose in, so expect many typos/ grammatical errors.

Well if my goal by posting that was to really reignite this thread then.. mission accomplished I'd say.

Ok, for those of you slamming Wikipedia.. this is 2017 everyone immediately goes there for all of their researching needs. We want instant gratification and that's how it should be.

Seriously though, I had been using Magma a lot for my daily meditation and if that music was written out of evil then it just doesn't work for me(is what it is). Anyway a definite thanks for all the helpful information that people are posting, especially CosmicVibration and Logan. It really is helpful. Cheers

When I was in my late teens and early twenties I occassionally parodied Nazi speeches and went way over the top with these parodies. I was really shocked when I learned that some people thought I was serious, that I was a Nazi and hated Jews and wanted them all killed. How could anyone who knew me think this was indeed my belief, that for example sentences like "Exterminate them with root and branch, burn them and blow their ashes in the wind, eradicate them from the face of the earth and from the face of the moon" or "It is the Jews' fault that you have to labor, it is the Jews' fault that you have to suffer, it is the Jews' fault that your seven year old son wets his bed at night" were meant to be serious? They were so obviously a parody! But apparently some people did believe I was serious. It seems I am too good an actress.

That's a great personal anecdote, Friede. Often when people get offended they think less rationally. Sometimes it's the knee-jerk reaction without thinking things through.

If someone were to cherry-pick from the many posts I've made at this forum, the objectionable/ questionable/ controversial stuff could make me look like a monster. Just my jokes alone could, although more people would be calling to have me shot for my poor sense of humour. When quoting it is common for people to take phrases out of context, and sometimes it is that one is having a bad day and you just don't express yourself well.

I have a replica of George Washington's pistol in my house, but that doesn't mean that I support slavery or even that I support the War of Independence. It's a faux historical artifact of interest to me, and I'd rather have the real one. Now, I don't think that I'd want Nazi memorabilia, but were I given some I wouldn't refuse it and I would take good care of it as a part of history.   Would I drive around in Hitler's car saluting people, perhaps not, though being a joker, I would have to resist the urge.

Just yesterday I was talking to my wife about why eating babies, not the jelly type, might be a good idea. Someone who didn't know me might find that offensive. It was a little thought experiment type thing the likes of which I used to enjoy when in school. But imagine, if I said that in an interview, the furor, as opposed to Führer, that might cause, especially if anyone admired me or I was a celebrity. There was a context to what I was saying that my wife got and, being of sound mind, totally ignored.

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As for wikipedia, it can be a useful source of information. I use it quite regularly for my own edification, but I don't rely on it for information. It cites the sources there, and I don't dismiss what it says, but like with information generally, one can draw the wrong or different conclusions from it, so when I read an article there I tend not to be reactive. I read it and cogitate, but I try to avoid rash conclusions. If it's something I care about, I will probably do more research. It doesn't tell the whole story, and sometimes we will never know the whole story (a lot is anecdotal evidence and then those people might not understand the motivations etc. -- unfortunately, people are unreliable sources and misremember things, neglect conflicting evidence, and lose context etc.). I have my interpretation, you have yours, they have theirs. One judges on who provides better evidence and more details, and a better argument, and by what you can infer. In academia they tend to prefer primary sources as much as possible.

I've known about this "controversy" with Christian Vander for years, but have come to a different conclusion than you have Yesesis, and so I would not ever have even considered boycotting his music. Even if I am wrong, I might not, to be honest, as I have albums by some people who have verifiably done despicable things. I can love the music without loving the person, and well, there is an ethical argument not to support despicable people, of course, but I don't believe that Christian Vander is despicable based on my research and thinking. In regards to the Nazi stuff, I think it's very easy to explain away in a good way, and I never like to assume the worst about people. As a hard determinist, I actually probably have more difficulty assigning moral culpability to anyone anyway than most people here.

Edited by Logan - August 26 2017 at 17:20

CosmicVibration wrote: Saperlipopette, even though that clip from French TV is a bit freaky, I would’ve never guessed Vander was doing a Hitler parody speech.

Just to be clear: its not literally a Hitler speech parody - that's only my association because of this discussion. (but I'm guessing all that practice - if its true came in handy) As far as I can tell its identical to the studio version of Stoah and in Kobaïan.  

Logan wrote: there are two swastikas on the cover of the debut album

I didn't realize that, and it won't work for me. Now before everyone jumps on me lol(they probably will anyway this is the internet - nature of the beast), that's just for me... you all do what you want. I'm an American and believe in freedom, you know as long as you're not hurting other and so forth. Just for me, even if I was ok with that symbol(which I'm not).. what if someone came over and that CD was out and they saw the cover? They may not say a word to me but in their head they might be thinking, "wow, guess you never really know people." So, it won't work. And I'm sorry CosmicVibration, I know you love them and you were the one who really turned me on to them.. but I just can't anymore.

Now on the flip side.. there's this Great Man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Gabriel The "Activist for humanitarian causes" section

Classic Genesis. There's a band that I will always love and cherish deeply.