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progressive rock in crisis

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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2018 at 07:18
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

If "I prophesise disaster" in the above post, and perhaps I'm being a bit harsh, I think that what will happen is....

There will be a few modern prog rock bands coming along. Youthful exuberance. Some of these will be pretty good, age is not necessarily a prerequisite for skill. 
They'll release some music: no one will put their hands in their pockets for it. It's like global warming, everyone knows it's happening, but it's someone elses' problem. 
The bands, after one or two albums, get totally disheartened and (to Mosh's chagrin) give up.  Prog rock albums usually take one or two iterations for ideas to get good and develop. So the best bits never happen.

Musicians, as I think I mentioned, then get the idea that involving the general public is just a headache and then either give up or play amongst themselves for their own entertainment. I can definitely see this happening more and more often. 

The result is that, yes, the music industry is in crisis and hence specialised music is in crisis. It's a sad state of affairs, and most likely inescapable, as a result of technological and societal change. 

One aside. Bands are now asking for kickstarters to release albums. In a lot of cases, the kickstarter fee is way above what the price it actually costs to record, mix and master an album. I've done complete albums for free for musicians, I do know the costs. What's happening is that bands, tired of being ripped off, are, in fact, returning the favour to the general public - "no fee, no play". The same token applies to concert tickets. If bands haven't made any money by record sales, ticket prices go up for concerts (mainly to line the pockets of promoters, who haven't had any money, either) or you get inflated festival tickets. This is the only way of getting money out of the "fans" and not one I subscribe to, either. 

But that's the way it seems to be going.... "supply and demand". 

This is also the reason labels (except big ones) are shutting down or just relying on legacy investments to earn royalties and not signing up new bands.  There is no money to be made from releasing an album so why would they.  The money is to be made from live shows, which goes to the band anyway.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wiz_d_kidd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2018 at 07:32
I did a poll ("Bandcamp name your price") asking how much people would pay if you could pay anything they felt was fair.  Six out of 20 respondents said they would pay NOTHING, not even a buck or two.  That's just sad...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2018 at 07:38
I forgot to mention that while music sales have gone down, the number of artists making new music seems to have gone up therefore there are literally millions more albums to wade through to find something good. Also there are many more talented musicians making the possibiliites of attracting new followers ever more difficult.

Add to that free download sites like Pirate Bay, free listening on Bandcamp, YouTube, BitChute etc and the mandatory drive to shell out some dough has also been dampened.

And then there is the obvious crisis of when one person buys an album, they let all their friends rip it, download or copy it in some way which obviously dips into the bottom line.

It seems to me that artists make their money touring these days with the extra accoutrements like T-shirts, hats etc. If someone is lucky enough to get a track or two to be used on a soundtrack or some other copyrighted goldmine, then they can still enjoy some income from that.

Otherwise, it is indeed pretty dismal indeed. On the other hand it's never been less expensive to actually create professionally produced music and the options have never been better.

And specifically regarding prog, many older albums from the 70s and 80s are resurfacing and finding second lives with some being released for the first time ever despite being recorded then.

  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2018 at 07:45
Yep, absolutely. 

To make money from touring or gigs, well. Firstly, you have to have made the money and the name to be able to afford to do so. If the money doesn't come in from album sales, and a gig venue, PA and lighting hire comes in at thousands.......  it's not going to happen. 

I remember my brother one lugging a drum kit up five flights of steps for a gig - this was a fire escape covered in ice during a howling gale. Five people turned up for the gig. And that was in the good old days. ;-)

Prog rock et al do not attract huge numbers of people to gigs, either. Unless it's a name. People don't get a name without years and years of work.

And bands just don't last long enough now to get there. 

As Silly Puppy says, there are loads and loads of bands out there. Most are, er. Um. Baaaad. There are a few decent ones. I think when people find a decent band, they just copy the link into a ripper and that's the end of that.

Quite literally. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2018 at 07:50
Originally posted by wiz_d_kidd wiz_d_kidd wrote:

I did a poll ("Bandcamp name your price") asking how much people would pay if you could pay anything they felt was fair.  Six out of 20 respondents said they would pay NOTHING, not even a buck or two.  That's just sad...

Seen the same thing. A poll of teenagers revealed that most would *never pay for music*. Music is seemingly perceived to be difficult from "festivals" which they will pay for, as that's somehow not connected. 

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh yes it is. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2018 at 07:53
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Yep, absolutely. 

To make money from touring or gigs, well. Firstly, you have to have made the money and the name to be able to afford to do so. If the money doesn't come in from album sales, and a gig venue, PA and lighting hire comes in at thousands.......  it's not going to happen. 

I remember my brother one lugging a drum kit up five flights of steps for a gig - this was a fire escape covered in ice during a howling gale. Five people turned up for the gig. And that was in the good old days. ;-)

Prog rock et al do not attract huge numbers of people to gigs, either. Unless it's a name. People don't get a name without years and years of work.

And bands just don't last long enough now to get there. 

As Silly Puppy says, there are loads and loads of bands out there. Most are, er. Um. Baaaad. There are a few decent ones. I think when people find a decent band, they just copy the link into a ripper and that's the end of that.

Quite literally. 

Add to that, a lot of young people these days aren't into live bands, they are more into DJs, or streamed music etc. I left the west coast because opportunities for live bands were becoming more and more scarce with the young tech oriented youth who sometimes see live music as a nuisance, or a throwback to a past time.

In the southern US, where I am now, live music is more common and tech culture is less prevalent, but you may not get as much a chance to play music that is 'cutting edge' or outrageously creative.

Edited by Easy Money - June 16 2018 at 07:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2018 at 08:04
I am, at this moment, sitting in front of £8,000 worth of self made modular synth, which makes 1974 Tangerine Dream's kit look like biscuit tins. There are one two three four five six seven analogue synths around me, 10 sequencers, six saxophones, five guitars, two basses and a flue, valve preamps, hand modded microphones, a wind synth, valve amps..... effects galore, a lot of them hand soldered up, 1960's valve audio generators....that's about half the setup we have. (Actually probably less than half). 

At the moment, I need a drummer, a van, one person to help on synths, PA hire (or even buy a couple of Bose stick PAs) - I'd get some trippy oil lights (Optikinetics Solar 250 plus 1/2 rpm rotators) and guess what ? You have the makings of an absolutely incredible little live gig. Six or seven weeks practice, that'd be enough. All mainly improvised. You'd probably all love it. 

Except. 

No one would turn up. If they did, they'd turn up if it was a fiver a ticket, but they wouldn't if it had to be set high enough to cover costs. There's additional money to print t shirts, so it'd be "risk £5-6k" on something where there is (no music sales) no provable evidence that you'd ever cover the costs. 

So I'll just sit in my studio surrounded by gear which gets played by me and a few musicians only. And all over the country, the same thing is happening. Sadly, what on earth is the incentive to possibly throw money away ? You'd take a chance for the fans. But there are seemingly no fans any more. 

So it's sad all around. Everyone loses. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2018 at 08:07
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Yep, absolutely. 

To make money from touring or gigs, well. Firstly, you have to have made the money and the name to be able to afford to do so. If the money doesn't come in from album sales, and a gig venue, PA and lighting hire comes in at thousands.......  it's not going to happen. 

I remember my brother one lugging a drum kit up five flights of steps for a gig - this was a fire escape covered in ice during a howling gale. Five people turned up for the gig. And that was in the good old days. ;-)

Prog rock et al do not attract huge numbers of people to gigs, either. Unless it's a name. People don't get a name without years and years of work.

And bands just don't last long enough now to get there. 

As Silly Puppy says, there are loads and loads of bands out there. Most are, er. Um. Baaaad. There are a few decent ones. I think when people find a decent band, they just copy the link into a ripper and that's the end of that.

Quite literally. 

Add to that, a lot of young people these days aren't into live bands, they are more into DJs, or streamed music etc. I left the west coast because opportunities for live bands were becoming more and more scarce with the young tech oriented youth who sometimes see live music as a nuisance, or a throwback to a past time.

In the southern US, where I am now, live music is more common and tech culture is less prevalent, but you may not get as much a chance to play music that is 'cutting edge' or outrageously creative.


Well said. Places like New Orleans, with subsidised housing for musicians, musicians quarters and a live scene get it right. And it's very true that kids today just want DJ's. Which is just dreadful, in my view. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2018 at 08:11
I have even more to add. Live music HAS become a hassel these days in many cases. Modern day life has made everything more expensive than it needs to be. First of all ticket companies gouge the consumers. Secondly, terrorist attacks, gun shootings etc mean people feel less safe going into public settings these days. The world is simply a different place that doesn't allow the luxuries of the past. I speak from my own experience with this. I rarely go to live shows any longer unless it's someone i really wanna see (such as Magma).

However, i do my diligent duty and shell out massive amounts of money buying physical copies of albums but with well over 10,000 albums, i'm running out of room!

My advice would be if you want to make money in music 1) play an accessible style of music that appeals to the masses such as doom metal or whatever happens to be big but leave your creative passions behind 2) just keep doing what you want and keep your expenses to a minimum. 3) consider being a music teacher. I known classically trained pianists who make their living teaching kids. They're making close to 100K and hardly make anything from actually performing / composing. Personally i think the third option is the most profitable these days.

I'm a musician and i just play for fun without any regard for $$$ however once i finally release something, i can't say it would be a bad thing if some income was generated :)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2018 at 08:21
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

I have even more to add. Live music HAS become a hassel these days in many cases. Modern day life has made everything more expensive than it needs to be. First of all ticket companies gouge the consumers. Secondly, terrorist attacks, gun shootings etc mean people feel less safe going into public settings these days. The world is simply a different place that doesn't allow the luxuries of the past. I speak from my own experience with this. I rarely go to live shows any longer unless it's someone i really wanna see (such as Magma).

However, i do my diligent duty and shell out massive amounts of money buying physical copies of albums but with well over 10,000 albums, i'm running out of room!

My advice would be if you want to make money in music 1) play an accessible style of music that appeals to the masses such as doom metal or whatever happens to be big but leave your creative passions behind 2) just keep doing what you want and keep your expenses to a minimum. 3) consider being a music teacher. I known classically trained pianists who make their living teaching kids. They're making close to 100K and hardly make anything from actually performing / composing. Personally i think the third option is the most profitable these days.

I'm a musician and i just play for fun without any regard for $$$ however once i finally release something, i can't say it would be a bad thing if some income was generated :)

My friend too teaches music at a school.  It doesn't make him a lot of money, nothing remotely comparable to his earlier management job, but it's enough to get by.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2018 at 08:49
^ i guess that all depends on where you live. I'm in the SF Bay Area so lots of money in these parts to pay too much for piano lessons i guess :)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2018 at 08:52
Yup.  I and my friend live in India where music education never cost much in the best of times. Yeah, if you get to teach at Rahman's academy or something.  Unfortunately my friend is not one of those fortunate souls.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2018 at 13:59
These days, I don't know how a musician can make it, financially, playing any kind of music! 

Not many years ago, some amazing musicians would pay bills by playing gigs at weddings, but now, we have DJs who play MP3s on a laptop.  

Similarly, live music at bars in the USA seems to be shrinking to nothing.  

Prog is very capital intensive as has been pointed out....when you figure out the keyboards, amps, multiple microphones, elaborate drums etc., it takes quite a bit of cash to pull off a live show. 

I've done some very simple shows with Lon Jones (Bob Fripp's early Guitar Craft student) that were very well attended, but none of us were expecting any cash from these one-off gigs.  Sad situation, sorry to say.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2018 at 14:13
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

These days, I don't know how a musician can make it, financially, playing any kind of music! 

Not many years ago, some amazing musicians would pay bills by playing gigs at weddings, but now, we have DJs who play MP3s on a laptop.  

Similarly, live music at bars in the USA seems to be shrinking to nothing.  

Prog is very capital intensive as has been pointed out....when you figure out the keyboards, amps, multiple microphones, elaborate drums etc., it takes quite a bit of cash to pull off a live show. 

I've done some very simple shows with Lon Jones (Bob Fripp's early Guitar Craft student) that were very well attended, but none of us were expecting any cash from these one-off gigs.  Sad situation, sorry to say.

I can relate. I retired from playing bar gigs in the early 2000s. Between karaoke, DJs and the advent of sports bars (wall-to-wall TVs and frickin' Buffalo wings), there was an ever-shrinking number of venues to play even back then. Add to that the venues that did have bands but catered to specific musical genres (Irish bars, punk bars, blues bars, etc.), a band interested in playing their own music was severely limited in choices. Playing covers gets quite tedious after several years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2018 at 22:14
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

It would probably be more accurate to say MUSIC INDUSTRY IN CRISIS.

Music sales have been plummiting all across the board for years now.

In fact i recently read that Mozart as well as older music outsold new artists for the first time a couple years ago.

As many new artists as we add here will tell you that prog isn't in a crisis of being created.

The crisis is in musicians making a living. It also seems music is less important to the youth than it was in previous generations with all the newer distractions like video games and virtual reality just to name a couple things.

I'm not sure that the "music industry" is in crisis ... they created the crisis and the rip off and the problem in the first place.

The internet, caused a different issue, which Dave does not discuss ... the number of people out there, and buying things is probably times 1,000, if not 10,000, the number of records, or artists that TOWER RECORDS or any music store, EVER, had to show, specially the biggest I ever saw (Rasputin in Berkeley - 2 stores!) ... and that means that the money that is used up in buying stuff is spread out quite a bit more, and of course, the music industry and Dave have an issue ... they can not get more, because it is all over the place.

Yes, I do buy a lot of music, but I have to be selective with my Social Security nickels and dimes. But lately, let's see ... I got Riverside, Bent Knee (looks like they will be here in Portland ... ), Richard Barbieri, a couple of Klaus Schulze CD's to replace the LP's ... and sadly, this is a small amount compared to how much I used to buy ... but while I won't say that Dave's stuff is not good, it is very nice actually, although my tastes tend to go towards what KS/TD do/did, as opposed to what Dave came up with, which for my ears and experience, is not new, and original, though nice to listen to.

I kinda think that this "music business" is ignoring the rap numbers when they say they are losing ... they lost it when they ignored black musicians 65 years ago ... and deserve to lose them, and I don't feel sorry for any record company and their manipulative ways. Even the daily USA TODAY, only writes up on "artists" that they have a financial interest in ... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ForestFriend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2018 at 00:37
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

I have even more to add. Live music HAS become a hassel these days in many cases. Modern day life has made everything more expensive than it needs to be. First of all ticket companies gouge the consumers.


I feel like you're only being gouged for live shows if you're seeing big name bands - smaller touring bands really aren't that expensive to see, and local bands are super cheap, at least where I live. I think a lot of people would end up paying more for parking and beer than they do for the music (speaking of gouging...).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2018 at 06:57
I see loads of $15 to $20 gigs and usually enjoy them more than the big name 'events'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2018 at 09:48
(Mosh)
"my tastes tend to go towards what KS/TD do/did, as opposed to what Dave came up with, which for my ears and experience, is not new, and original, though nice to listen to."

You need new ears, Mosh. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2018 at 09:50
(Mosh again)
"The internet, caused a different issue, which Dave does not discuss ... the number of people out there, and buying things is probably times 1,000, if not 10,000, the number of records, or artists that TOWER RECORDS or any music store, EVER, had to show,"

Actually, I did discuss it, Mosh. I mentioned that (by referring to six years of analytics) people no longer buy music. They browse it. 

So you can have 50 billion musicians out there and no one buys. 

New eyes, new ears.... ;-)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2018 at 07:18
Originally posted by iancat87 iancat87 wrote:

I mean most of "progressive rock" since the late Seventies hasn't been very progressive at all. 
...

To me, this is the problem with the comments here. 

"Progressive Rock" STOPPED at a few examples, and despite its supposed freedom, it can not develop from there, thus, there will never be any new anything that can possibly be progressive, and that's simply not true anymore, specially in the age of the Internet. There are way more things out there, that would be considered "progressive rock", were it not for us to be stuck on a couple of things that have become well known ... to the detriment of all other work out there.

And this is the part that I hope some folks here learn, about their feelings and beliefs. IF IT IS PROGRESSIVE, then it is not STATIC and INFLEXIBLE. And many of us are making it so! And then, we call it a crisis!

Gawd we need a theory of relativity so bad ... because this "progressive rock" thing is a total mess.
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