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Is it time for Brutal Prog as a new sub?

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siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2019 at 06:23
Originally posted by Jeffro Jeffro wrote:

"Brutal" prog?? Do you have to hit yourself over the head with a blunt object when you listen to it? What a silly sounding genre name. 

Well not every genre can sound as elegant or descriptive as Krautrock or Canterbury Scene LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2019 at 06:27
Whether it sounds good or not, it is a recognized sub-genre. The question is, will we recognize it as well. As far as who would handle it, i imagine it would just be tacked onto the RIO team who would have another category to consider. Personally i think it's a useful desciptive sub that distinguishes say chamber rock like Univers Zero from chaotic freakery from the bands mentioned. I think the RIO / Avant is overly large and cumbersome much like metal would be if it were one lump sum of artists.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2019 at 07:09
Avant already has a RIO and Zeuhl breakout, I'd just make it another sub-genre under Avant, personally I'd do Chamber Rock too but then I'm fine with sub-genres.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Meltdowner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2019 at 07:31
^ We should just join all these sub-genres and call it Panhead Prog Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2019 at 08:20
^ or better  yet.... heavy panhead prog, chamber panhead prog, the Kobaian Scene and Zappa Tongue

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Icarium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2019 at 09:05
I remember similar discussion when the New prog phenomena was stsrting to get popular in the 2007s but i the total oppesite spectrum of sound and influence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeffro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2019 at 09:30
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Jeffro Jeffro wrote:

"Brutal" prog?? Do you have to hit yourself over the head with a blunt object when you listen to it? What a silly sounding genre name. 

Well not every genre can sound as elegant or descriptive as Krautrock or Canterbury Scene LOL

Yeah, lots of silly sounding genre names.

Come to think of it, maybe hitting myself with a blunt instrument while attempting to listen to Trout Mask Replica again will allow me to finally understand it.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NotAProghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2019 at 13:14
Guys, there are enough subgenres, IMHO.

Any new subgenre may restrict the number of potential listeners. For example, theoretically I can see myself reading a review of some RIO/Avant album. But if the album belongs to Brutal Prog more likely that I'll simply ignore the review. 

Why, the hell, it's necessary to put each animal (i.e. band or artist) into its small cage? Leave them some space to walk.


Edited by NotAProghead - June 18 2019 at 13:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2019 at 13:52
Looking at the Brutal Prog subgenre chart at rateyourmusic, CLICK, I see I have plenty of that in my collection, but I would not have thought of Koenjihyakkei, Guapo, Bondage Fruit, Happy Family, Ruins, Jean Louis and others as Brutal Prog (Zeuhl/ Avant Prog does it well enough for me for those in my collection).

Off on tangents:

I do want more subgenres, and as Chamber Prog was mentioned, that's one I've wanted for over a decade here, but as a sub or as a sub-sub category), but I would much rather have subgenres as tags that one could assign to albums (artists and albums cross genres). Having multiple classification tags that can be assigned on the album level would be useful for research and discovery to me. When searching for albums, I do find rateyourmusic a more valuable resource than PA (also helps that it isn't so musically limited). Anyway, I don't ever expect such changes now, although keeping bands in a limited number of subgenres while offering the ability for users to tag albums with different styles I still think might be a good approach. I wish I could easily see the complete list of sub-genres at rateyourmsic, but they have a tonne, and there are a huge many more than we have that could work for bands in the PA purview.

Instead of one small cage, I'd rather an animal in various cages -- I mean that sounds like I support dismemberment, but I mean that ideally there would be more descriptors, and it would be easy to search for albums that cross various styles. For instance, if I want to find a Psychedelic Folk meets Electronic music album in PA, it's not easy to find (as it works now, I wish Prog folk had some sub categories). RYM's search engine could be improved too as the custom filters don't seem to work that well for me when I want to include multiple sub-genres, but at least it's much easier to find progressive Psychedelic folk albums there than here. If we want a better site, then perhaps we should pool our skills and resources to make our own.

Originally posted by Quinino Quinino wrote:

Well, he smashed the craptcha bug, didn't he ?

(so he must keep some kind of intervention - at least of pest control)



I still get Captchas, and they are still irritating, and the providers of that are the ones who have worked out some of the bugs. That said, [email protected] had played with the settings for it for this site. Actually, I don't get hit with it when I use Opera, but on Safari and Chrome I get hit with it a lot (don't know why I still use Chrome at all).

Edited by Logan - June 18 2019 at 14:44
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - "The Face of Evil" 1977).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2019 at 19:50
Re Logan's request for more folk sub-genres:

BRUTAL FOLK:



EXTREME FOLK:



AVANT FOLK:



Edited by Easy Money - June 19 2019 at 19:55
"When the wind stops blowing, there goes your electric" - Commander bone spurs befuddled by 21st century technology.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2019 at 20:18
^ I just listened to The Shaggs a few days ago. That is TRULY brutal folk. I actually like it though! It's unlike anything anyone could possibly think up. I'm not sure if that was all done on purpose or they were just so bad that it flipped its polarity into cosmically weirdly good!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2019 at 20:28
Its hard to understand the Shaggs phenomena today because recording is so cheap and easy today that any Shaggs type band can put out a recording, and many of them do, but things were far different back then.

Back then recording an album was very expensive and the only people who could do it were people who were talented or popular enough to get an advance from the record company, or you were someone who they thought would become popular.

The Shaggs were that rare group where their Dad just plain shelled out all the cash it took to record them and put out the album. There was also a fairly tuneless jazz singer named Sarita in SF who had a rich husband who put out her album, and there is also a famously bad opera singer who also had a rich husband, but i can't remember her name.
Back then people like that really stood out, but today recording is so cheap and easy that all kinds of non-talents are putting out recordings.

Edited by Easy Money - June 19 2019 at 20:56
"When the wind stops blowing, there goes your electric" - Commander bone spurs befuddled by 21st century technology.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2019 at 20:49
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ I just listened to The Shaggs a few days ago. That is TRULY brutal folk. I actually like it though! It's unlike anything anyone could possibly think up. I'm not sure if that was all done on purpose or they were just so bad that it flipped its polarity into cosmically weirdly good!
The Shaggs were pretty... amazing. I like your “flipped polarity” theory. So bad it’s good. And insanely creepy in places too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2019 at 21:10
Well if they were really bad, how can anyone be THAT bad? There must've been a little tongue and cheek silliness to the whole thing. Maybe they just realized that they couldn't be the Supremes or whatever so they just did whatever they wanted. I wish my parents bought me a recording studio! LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2019 at 21:43
Well they are creative and certainly seem to be having fun. Apparently dad had a dream that his daughters would be rock stars so he rushed them to the studio before they had a chance to learn how to play or tune their instruments, so they just did the best they could.
You can hear the 'guitarist' strumming the guitar in different places to make up for not knowing any chords, and the drummer has some sort of arrangement going, just not what was normally expected of a drummer.

Edited by Easy Money - June 19 2019 at 21:44
"When the wind stops blowing, there goes your electric" - Commander bone spurs befuddled by 21st century technology.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2019 at 21:48
^ maybe they invented avant-prog! LOL 

We should add them to the prog folk section. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2019 at 22:04
I genuinely love The Shagg's Philososophy of the World, it's my favourite bad album (well, that and an L. Ron Hubbard of Scientology one) and I have listened to it many times over the years, and Tiny Tim. And the German folk song is fun. One of these I'd like to see Heino included in PA in a Schlager-Metal category.





Makes one feel so patriotic for the Homeland (well, it might if I were German).

Then there's Pat Boone for Prog Metal:



And the awesome Christopher Lee:



"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views" (Doctor Who - "The Face of Evil" 1977).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2019 at 22:06
LOL. I'm just now reading that the Shaggs were influential for Zappa.  Now that deserves a prog related ticket to PA!!!!

I'm mesmerized by this album. It literally is like a mirage in the desert. Is it horrible or is it utterly brilliant and decades ahead of its time. I don't know but like my urge to pick scabs before they heal, i can't stop listening once i put this on. EVERYONE should check out The Shaggs!



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2019 at 22:16
Re Heino: When I was young the local K Mart had plenty of Heino records in the budget section, along with occasional records by Blue Cheer, Sun Ra and John Cage. I got Cage's "Variations IV" for a penny.
"When the wind stops blowing, there goes your electric" - Commander bone spurs befuddled by 21st century technology.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Polymorphia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2019 at 22:39
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:


AVANT FOLK:
Ah, but Avant Folk is a term. It isn't a prog subgenre though.
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