Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Is prog opposed to the idea of hit songs?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Is prog opposed to the idea of hit songs?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
Message
Manuel View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 09 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 12394
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2019 at 11:30
Yes, I think a song cannot be fully appreciated outside the context of the rest of the music, but also, those radio friendly songs helped expose the bands to a bigger audience, and many people discovered progressive music through these songs, like "living in the past," "from the beginning," and many others that made got played on the radio in the 70s. So, maybe they were not fully appreciated when played on the radio waves, but gave the people a chance to get to know the bands, and appreciate their music when they got the albums.
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16164
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2019 at 19:53
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


I am just disappointed that so many ADMIN's in this board have no idea what they are trying to support, and I think that they will kill it all because of this lack of knowledge and appreciation to the music ... they keep on trying to KILL PROGRESSIVE MUSIC, because they can only support hits!
 
That seems a bit harsh.

... then do something that HONORS THE SPIRIT that helped create "Progressive Music" and "Prog" ... because some Admins are not ... and sadly/unfortunately M@x seems to not have the time to even check/know who the folks volunteering for him are and what they stand for.

I'm not out to change everything for nothing ... I'm only out to improve things, and we can't do so ... we plain can not do so ... when so many Admins consistently continue to discuss this as just a hits board ... and posting on those threads about their "favorite". That's an Admin not fit to be involved in a discussion about "Progressive Music".

Why can't people look at all those "top" albums and realize what they are about ... almost none of them are just songs, about nothing. ITCOTCK is by far, for example, one of the most political albums ever done, just done within the structure of poetry and lyrics that soften the message some, but made it clear musically ... instead it is ignored, and some reviews even state it is an uneven album ... and today? That album would be trashed silly and right off the bat! Any band doing something like that today won't last 5 minutes, from a guy in a big white house telling the record company to fire them, to folks here going around throwing tomatoes and everything else at them!

The "hit song" thing is not the issue ... it's the content. Progressive Music and a lot of Prog was not vacuous and pathetically boring and repetitive formats that did not help music develop anywhere, except in your growth from a teenager to an adult ... now you knew how to count 1,2 and 3 and then 4, and even what a few notes sounded like. Wow!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
richardh View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26171
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2019 at 00:21
Originally posted by Frankh Frankh wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

It's well know that some bands didn't release singles in the seventies , Led Zep being the obvious one


Mighty Zep sure did release 70's singles. Whole Lotta Love may have hit the market in 1969 but it was charting into 1970.

I recall Dyer Maker subsequently and All Of My Love as well.

There may have been others.

Whole Lotta Love changed my Top 40 perception paradigm.

lol
 

Just checked and weirdly it was just the UK (although a reissue of Whole Lotta Love was released here in 1993 according to Wiki and made 21 )

btw Whole Lotta Love made the top five in every country in was released in in 1969
Back to Top
richardh View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26171
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2019 at 00:26
Originally posted by Kingsnake Kingsnake wrote:


Did you know that even IQ were on a major once? They even released a couple of singles in the mid-to-late eigthies. 


 

yep that was the pop phase albums Nomzamo and Are You Sitting Comfortably? fronted by Paul Menel (who recently made a solo comeback)
One of the songs from those albums (Might have been 'As The Years Go by') was a massive hit in South America thanks to being linked to a popular advert that was aired on TV.
Thankfully got back to the grind of 'proper' prog in the 90's. They took more control of their direction by forming GEP records and signed up artist like Spock's Beard and Threshold. The label is still going strong. Not sure if they even bother releasing hit singles anymore.
Back to Top
richardh View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26171
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2019 at 00:28
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


I am just disappointed that so many ADMIN's in this board have no idea what they are trying to support, and I think that they will kill it all because of this lack of knowledge and appreciation to the music ... they keep on trying to KILL PROGRESSIVE MUSIC, because they can only support hits!
 
That seems a bit harsh.
 

and also quite obviously a load of bolderdash
Back to Top
Frenetic Zetetic View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 09 2017
Location: Now
Status: Offline
Points: 9233
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2019 at 02:09
Originally posted by Kingsnake Kingsnake wrote:

Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

Originally posted by Kingsnake Kingsnake wrote:



Most lesser known progbands like Camel and Gentle Giant didnt really care. They were even unable to actually write a decent popsong.


I'd argue GG is one of the few prog bands capable of writing a pop song, and you can tell they got sick of prog toward the end with the last couple albums.

Those songs aren't amazing but to claim GG was incapable of writing a decent pop song is a stretch. Mountain Time is catchy as hell (same with For Nobody, I Lost My Head, etc.) and could have easily been a radio hit. If anything those guys were just smart and knew what they wanted to do. That's different than being incapable, especially at the level of skill GG displays.

I even think that Missing Piece and Civilian could have been better known, if they had proper promotion.
They were on of the few indeed to crossover to other styles very easily (like Queen and 10cc).

Is should've left Gentle Giant out of the equation. They just had bad promotion. An album like Civilian could have been as big as 90125.

Maybe Eloy was a better example. Towards the eigthies they released a couple of singles and none of them charted.

No you're right my man, Missing Piece and Civilian SHOULD have been better known, especially for that sound at the time! Another perfect example of dropping the ball...er...Giant... LOL

I agree with your assertion that Civilian COULD have been their 90125. The fact the latter sold so well is a massive indicator the boys could have struck gold briefly. Those old German TV show performances are some of my favorite prog moments of all time!

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
Back to Top
chopper View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 19944
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2019 at 05:39
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


I am just disappointed that so many ADMIN's in this board have no idea what they are trying to support, and I think that they will kill it all because of this lack of knowledge and appreciation to the music ... they keep on trying to KILL PROGRESSIVE MUSIC, because they can only support hits!
 
That seems a bit harsh.
 

and also quite obviously a load of bolderdash
Yes, that as well.
Back to Top
Davesax1965 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2826
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2019 at 06:25
Prog is music
Music is art
Art is subjective
There is no right and wrong. 

Back to Top
Lewian View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14110
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2019 at 06:28
I listen to complete albums and I also listen to single songs in isolation. I admire a catchy melody and for me a song doesn't need to be 5+ minutes long. Also I have my favourite songs on many albums that I love to play on their own, which doesn't mean I can't appreciate "flow"; although I don't think the bands get the "flow" always right on their albums; there are albums with good stuff but putting all that stuff together doesn't always make a coherent album (I hardly ever listen to the Genesis albums up to Lamb except Live in full because the whole is often not more for me than the sum of its - often great - parts). And then I don't care much what other people buy, so if I like something, others may make it a top 10 hit or not, I don't mind.

I wouldn't object against listening to a single song that was conceived within an album concept outside the album. If the song can only be appreciated within an album context, it wouldn't become a hit single anyway. Obviously making a song from a concept album (or an album that has some kind of "flow") a single will not destroy the flow, because the song is still on the album, you can check! Tongue

Who objects to playing Comfortably Numb outside the Wall context should also object against David Gilmour and the post-Waters Pink Floyd playing this song in a live show without playing the whole album. Which is by the way what 95% of prog bands do all the time. Recently there has been a fashion to play full albums live, even old ones, which is perfectly fine, but it still is only a footnote in the live practice of most bands. 

Of course Moshkito is right that one thing about prog that I like is that it is mostly not done in order to sell, but even in that respect I can be corrupted as I like a few Mike Oldfield pop singles (though far from them all).   

By the way, some defend Gentle Giant as being able to write a good pop song but nobody seems to have defended Camel yet, who have some great pop songs indeed (Heroes, West Berlin, Hymn to Her), some of which were singles but didn't sell that well for whatever reason.
Back to Top
ExittheLemming View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2019 at 09:31
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

when so many Admins consistently continue to discuss this as just a hits board ... and posting on those threads about their "favorite". That's an Admin not fit to be involved in a discussion about "Progressive Music".



Not a single Admin has yet posted in this thread, so which Admins post in this fashion throughout the rest of the forum? As the old adage has it: Put Up or Shut Up etc
Speaking as an ex Admin, I found it's usually best to clarify the charges first to avoid accusations being interpreted as 'scattergun' at best and 'indiscriminate at worstBig smile
Back to Top
dr wu23 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20468
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2019 at 12:31
Originally posted by ForestFriend ForestFriend wrote:



Let's be honest, the only reason prog doesn't make many hit singles is because prog artists like to make songs that are too long or too weird for the radio.

That sums it up.....
Smile
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
Back to Top
chopper View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 19944
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2019 at 03:55
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


I am just disappointed that so many ADMIN's in this board have no idea what they are trying to support, and I think that they will kill it all because of this lack of knowledge and appreciation to the music ... they keep on trying to KILL PROGRESSIVE MUSIC, because they can only support hits!
 
That seems a bit harsh.

... then do something that HONORS THE SPIRIT that helped create "Progressive Music" and "Prog" ... because some Admins are not
 
What would you suggest I do? I support prog bands, I buy their CDs, go to their gigs, what else can I do?
Back to Top
M27Barney View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 09 2006
Location: Swinton M27
Status: Offline
Points: 3136
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2019 at 06:48
Moshkito is definately a post modernist. Has he ever posted a critique or reposte that wasn't vebose and full of impenetrable balderdash? Anyway, my two penneth is clearly in the camp that observes that most prog bands inadvertantly had top ten hits without INTENDING to have a hit...
Back to Top
The Dark Elf View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 12700
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2019 at 07:26
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

...
Only Moshkito is vehemently opposed to hit songs Wink (cue impenetrable critique of the entire PA membership apart from Pedro himself)
Self-editing would be helpful, but since you seem incapable of control, I snipped and pruned the detritus....
 
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


Hit Songs, is what "progressive music" was against. What bothers me, is that a lot of the admins that run this place are not even smart enough to stand up for that idea and concept and instead take on the populist role ... which they don't even believe in anyway ... to make sure they can say something stupid about Mosh ... Mosh is NOT the problem ... the lack of respect for a lot of the music that became "progressive" by many Admins, in lieu of their "favorite songs" is the problem ... 

I am just disappointed that so many ADMIN's in this board have no idea what they are trying to support, and I think that they will kill it all because of this lack of knowledge and appreciation to the music ... they keep on trying to KILL PROGRESSIVE MUSIC, because they can only support hits! And almost NONE of them can stand up and say ... ohhh ... that was bad ... we need to improve on that ... and until the day that this happens, I'm not sure that the life of "Progressive Music" or "Prog" can survive long enough to get some respect ... it already doesn't here, because tomorrow it won't be a hit anymore! And too many of the folks here don't care and try to shoot blanks into a fart!

Having been around musicians since I was old enough to pick up a guitar and strum chords, I would suggest that no band purposely set out to be unknown and starving in a garret for their muse (that is usually an excuse for musicians who can't get a paying gig). The very nature of musicianship is to play to an audience.

I would suggest further that the uniqueness of progressive rock in the 1960s and 1970s is that it not only had an audience, but a vast worldwide following. Certainly, the music was more intricate, more dense, more obscure, and in many cases more intellectually twee; however, on a subliminal level, a connection existed between the burgeoning audience and the obscurant musicians where some artists in the movement actually had...GASP...hits. I suppose these instances may be cases where even blind squirrels find a nut, but really, it's perhaps more of a case where some of the progressive artists with the ability to compose sprawling progressive pieces also had an innate sense of songcraft above and beyond the musical wizardry (or at least competency) involved in the prog-rock milieu.

"Hits" in the sense of progressive rock bands who actually were able to sell their sound and their compositions on a wide scale is merely the ability of those particular artists to craft songs that appeal to not only the nerds who tend to gravitate to the form, but also to many listeners who otherwise blandly utter that they "like all music", when that is never the reality of their musical insipidity.

And the idea of "hits" in a genre of complex structures and great musicians is not merely a phenomena of prog-rock. Over the centuries, many great musicians and composers have fallen to the wayside because for all their complexity and abilities, they did not wholly connect, nor endure, with listeners. This film scene is, of course, completely fictitious, but it does mete out timeless truths about musicians and musicianship:




Edited by The Dark Elf - August 09 2019 at 07:30
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Back to Top
Jeffro View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 29 2014
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2037
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeffro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2019 at 07:27
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Prog is music
Music is art
Art is subjective
There is no right and wrong. 

But, but, what of site admins destroying the prog?? What of it????
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16164
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2019 at 11:16
Originally posted by Jeffro Jeffro wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Prog is music
Music is art
Art is subjective
There is no right and wrong. 

But, but, what of site admins destroying the prog?? What of it????

I'm not totally sure that ALL music is "art". It's like saying that every book makes "literature" and and so on, just because it told you a story about a dog licking some water in the gutter by your house!

Art is only SUBJECTIVE, from the artist's perception, because there is no right or wrong when he/she is doing it ... in many cases, it is what you see, and you might not like it, and this is there you decision is a problem ... your choice is not (usually) objective ... it is more often then not perceived through the lens that make up your constitution. And that makes it subjective, however, in of itself, and has little to do with the piece of art ... this has more to do with your own vision and understanding, and you are confusing the two ... they are NOT the same thing.

Right or Wrong, is one of the worst ideas used everywhere ... there is no right or wrong, except one's choices, of course, when they will immediately stand up for their GOD and deny anyone else's ... even if it were the same feeling and idea ... in different words, just to give you an idea of a right/wrong gone totally berserk and out of order!

A piece of art, has no life of its own, thus is can not be objective or subjective ... what comes out of it, is what we animate to make it objective or subjective ... and that has to do with our own way of seeing things and representing them. You could have learned a lot about this in the 60's when Andy Warhol was giving you some pictures, that challenged your idea of what "art" was and if it was either subjective or objective ... again, that result had to do with your perception ... and nothing to do with a can of soup, or a picture of dearest Marilyn ... well, I suppose that we could fantasize some but that would be on us, not the picture! Same with the Playboy fold outs when we were kids ... and going wow ... that's far out!

"Hit songs" is something that arose out of the media for the purposes of selling ... there is no more subjective idea in commercial advertising to subvert your thoughts and ideas ... and most folks, that are not aware of the mechanisms behind the commercial ideas, will usually fall into this trap ... but few of those folks will EVER admit that they got suckered into it.

I'm not opposed to "hit songs" and there are many I love dearly and have in my collection, however, in the history of PROGRESSIVE MUSIC, hits is not what the music was about, even if one or two pieces did really well and helped the band ... but heck ... YES was not known as "progressive" anything when ROUNDABOUT got out and FM radio in America played it to death. It was a great song, no doubt. And the band deserved the attention!

I recommend that you study your relationship to the arts ... and separate the art itself from yourself ... while the idea of what you posted is OK, in the end, it is not exactly clear what you are saying and in most cases you are confusing the issue ... specially what is you and what is the art "over there". We learn this FAST AND FURIOUS in theater and film ... but only in a rock music board will someone say things like that and think they are right! And then try to use it to prove someone else is wrong! That is soooooooooooooooo PA, it's sad!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
M27Barney View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 09 2006
Location: Swinton M27
Status: Offline
Points: 3136
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2019 at 12:39
The argument that there is no right and wrong is the very definition of post modernistic mindset. Since everbody is right from their perception...ergo nobody is ever wrong either....philosophical dead end that can justify anything and condemn nothing...
Back to Top
progaardvark View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Crossover/Symphonic/RPI Teams

Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Sea of Peas
Status: Offline
Points: 48752
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2019 at 12:51
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

And too many of the folks here don't care and try to shoot blanks into a fart!

That's admittedly something I've never tried before. With the naked eye or the telescope, usually they appear invisible making it difficult to shoot them. If the pants are baggy enough, they might puff out upon the release of a fart. You could time your shot this way, but how would you be certain you actually hit the fart? If the anus is pivoted in a different direction, that fart might not have travelled from the fartee on a 90 degree angle. It may have been more oblique. And let's not forget that there is a human on the other end of that fart and if your aim is off, a derrière might be in a lot of pain.

One of the better solutions for shooting a fart might be to use infrared vision and a scope. This should alleviate the inaccuracy of an oblique fart.

Just a thought.
----------
i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag
that's a happy bag of lettuce
this car smells like cartilage
nothing beats a good video about fractions
Back to Top
Barbu View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 09 2005
Location: infinity
Status: Offline
Points: 30845
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2019 at 13:30
If I were you Mush, I would listen to what the dude is saying, he is a well-known expert in the field.
Back to Top
M27Barney View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 09 2006
Location: Swinton M27
Status: Offline
Points: 3136
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2019 at 14:13
Well if you lock a cat in a box after giving it a food that sometimes produces lethal gases in the flatus. When you shut the cat in....it is neither alive nor dead...Perhaps thst is what the mosh is trying to descibe?
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.164 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.