Is prog opposed to the idea of hit songs? |
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Manuel
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 09 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 12394 |
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Yes, I think a song cannot be fully appreciated outside the context of the rest of the music, but also, those radio friendly songs helped expose the bands to a bigger audience, and many people discovered progressive music through these songs, like "living in the past," "from the beginning," and many others that made got played on the radio in the 70s. So, maybe they were not fully appreciated when played on the radio waves, but gave the people a chance to get to know the bands, and appreciate their music when they got the albums.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16164 |
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... then do something that HONORS THE SPIRIT that helped create "Progressive Music" and "Prog" ... because some Admins are not ... and sadly/unfortunately M@x seems to not have the time to even check/know who the folks volunteering for him are and what they stand for. I'm not out to change everything for nothing ... I'm only out to improve things, and we can't do so ... we plain can not do so ... when so many Admins consistently continue to discuss this as just a hits board ... and posting on those threads about their "favorite". That's an Admin not fit to be involved in a discussion about "Progressive Music". Why can't people look at all those "top" albums and realize what they are about ... almost none of them are just songs, about nothing. ITCOTCK is by far, for example, one of the most political albums ever done, just done within the structure of poetry and lyrics that soften the message some, but made it clear musically ... instead it is ignored, and some reviews even state it is an uneven album ... and today? That album would be trashed silly and right off the bat! Any band doing something like that today won't last 5 minutes, from a guy in a big white house telling the record company to fire them, to folks here going around throwing tomatoes and everything else at them! The "hit song" thing is not the issue ... it's the content. Progressive Music and a lot of Prog was not vacuous and pathetically boring and repetitive formats that did not help music develop anywhere, except in your growth from a teenager to an adult ... now you knew how to count 1,2 and 3 and then 4, and even what a few notes sounded like. Wow!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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richardh
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 26171 |
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Just checked and weirdly it was just the UK (although a reissue of Whole Lotta Love was released here in 1993 according to Wiki and made 21 ) btw Whole Lotta Love made the top five in every country in was released in in 1969
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richardh
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 26171 |
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yep that was the pop phase albums Nomzamo and Are You Sitting Comfortably? fronted by Paul Menel (who recently made a solo comeback) One of the songs from those albums (Might have been 'As The Years Go by') was a massive hit in South America thanks to being linked to a popular advert that was aired on TV. Thankfully got back to the grind of 'proper' prog in the 90's. They took more control of their direction by forming GEP records and signed up artist like Spock's Beard and Threshold. The label is still going strong. Not sure if they even bother releasing hit singles anymore.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 26171 |
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and also quite obviously a load of bolderdash
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Frenetic Zetetic
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 09 2017 Location: Now Status: Offline Points: 9233 |
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No you're right my man, Missing Piece and Civilian SHOULD have been better known, especially for that sound at the time! Another perfect example of dropping the ball...er...Giant... I agree with your assertion that Civilian COULD have been their 90125. The fact the latter sold so well is a massive indicator the boys could have struck gold briefly. Those old German TV show performances are some of my favorite prog moments of all time!
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"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
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chopper
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 13 2005 Location: Essex, UK Status: Offline Points: 19944 |
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Yes, that as well.
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 23 2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 2826 |
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Prog is music
Music is art Art is subjective
There is no right and wrong. |
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14110 |
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I listen to complete albums and I also listen to single songs in isolation. I admire a catchy melody and for me a song doesn't need to be 5+ minutes long. Also I have my favourite songs on many albums that I love to play on their own, which doesn't mean I can't appreciate "flow"; although I don't think the bands get the "flow" always right on their albums; there are albums with good stuff but putting all that stuff together doesn't always make a coherent album (I hardly ever listen to the Genesis albums up to Lamb except Live in full because the whole is often not more for me than the sum of its - often great - parts). And then I don't care much what other people buy, so if I like something, others may make it a top 10 hit or not, I don't mind. I wouldn't object against listening to a single song that was conceived within an album concept outside the album. If the song can only be appreciated within an album context, it wouldn't become a hit single anyway. Obviously making a song from a concept album (or an album that has some kind of "flow") a single will not destroy the flow, because the song is still on the album, you can check! Who objects to playing Comfortably Numb outside the Wall context should also object against David Gilmour and the post-Waters Pink Floyd playing this song in a live show without playing the whole album. Which is by the way what 95% of prog bands do all the time. Recently there has been a fashion to play full albums live, even old ones, which is perfectly fine, but it still is only a footnote in the live practice of most bands. Of course Moshkito is right that one thing about prog that I like is that it is mostly not done in order to sell, but even in that respect I can be corrupted as I like a few Mike Oldfield pop singles (though far from them all). By the way, some defend Gentle Giant as being able to write a good pop song but nobody seems to have defended Camel yet, who have some great pop songs indeed (Heroes, West Berlin, Hymn to Her), some of which were singles but didn't sell that well for whatever reason.
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11415 |
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Not a single Admin has yet posted in this thread, so which Admins post in this fashion throughout the rest of the forum? As the old adage has it: Put Up or Shut Up etc Speaking as an ex Admin, I found it's usually best to clarify the charges first to avoid accusations being interpreted as 'scattergun' at best and 'indiscriminate at worst
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dr wu23
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That sums it up..... |
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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chopper
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What would you suggest I do? I support prog bands, I buy their CDs, go to their gigs, what else can I do?
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M27Barney
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 09 2006 Location: Swinton M27 Status: Offline Points: 3136 |
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Moshkito is definately a post modernist. Has he ever posted a critique or reposte that wasn't vebose and full of impenetrable balderdash? Anyway, my two penneth is clearly in the camp that observes that most prog bands inadvertantly had top ten hits without INTENDING to have a hit...
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 12700 |
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Self-editing would be helpful, but since you seem incapable of control, I snipped and pruned the detritus....
Having been around musicians since I was old enough to pick up a guitar and strum chords, I would suggest that no band purposely set out to be unknown and starving in a garret for their muse (that is usually an excuse for musicians who can't get a paying gig). The very nature of musicianship is to play to an audience. I would suggest further that the uniqueness of progressive rock in the 1960s and 1970s is that it not only had an audience, but a vast worldwide following. Certainly, the music was more intricate, more dense, more obscure, and in many cases more intellectually twee; however, on a subliminal level, a connection existed between the burgeoning audience and the obscurant musicians where some artists in the movement actually had...GASP...hits. I suppose these instances may be cases where even blind squirrels find a nut, but really, it's perhaps more of a case where some of the progressive artists with the ability to compose sprawling progressive pieces also had an innate sense of songcraft above and beyond the musical wizardry (or at least competency) involved in the prog-rock milieu. "Hits" in the sense of progressive rock bands who actually were able to sell their sound and their compositions on a wide scale is merely the ability of those particular artists to craft songs that appeal to not only the nerds who tend to gravitate to the form, but also to many listeners who otherwise blandly utter that they "like all music", when that is never the reality of their musical insipidity. And the idea of "hits" in a genre of complex structures and great musicians is not merely a phenomena of prog-rock. Over the centuries, many great musicians and composers have fallen to the wayside because for all their complexity and abilities, they did not wholly connect, nor endure, with listeners. This film scene is, of course, completely fictitious, but it does mete out timeless truths about musicians and musicianship: Edited by The Dark Elf - August 09 2019 at 07:30 |
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Jeffro
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 29 2014 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2037 |
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But, but, what of site admins destroying the prog?? What of it????
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16164 |
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I'm not totally sure that ALL music is "art". It's like saying that every book makes "literature" and and so on, just because it told you a story about a dog licking some water in the gutter by your house! Art is only SUBJECTIVE, from the artist's perception, because there is no right or wrong when he/she is doing it ... in many cases, it is what you see, and you might not like it, and this is there you decision is a problem ... your choice is not (usually) objective ... it is more often then not perceived through the lens that make up your constitution. And that makes it subjective, however, in of itself, and has little to do with the piece of art ... this has more to do with your own vision and understanding, and you are confusing the two ... they are NOT the same thing. Right or Wrong, is one of the worst ideas used everywhere ... there is no right or wrong, except one's choices, of course, when they will immediately stand up for their GOD and deny anyone else's ... even if it were the same feeling and idea ... in different words, just to give you an idea of a right/wrong gone totally berserk and out of order! A piece of art, has no life of its own, thus is can not be objective or subjective ... what comes out of it, is what we animate to make it objective or subjective ... and that has to do with our own way of seeing things and representing them. You could have learned a lot about this in the 60's when Andy Warhol was giving you some pictures, that challenged your idea of what "art" was and if it was either subjective or objective ... again, that result had to do with your perception ... and nothing to do with a can of soup, or a picture of dearest Marilyn ... well, I suppose that we could fantasize some but that would be on us, not the picture! Same with the Playboy fold outs when we were kids ... and going wow ... that's far out! "Hit songs" is something that arose out of the media for the purposes of selling ... there is no more subjective idea in commercial advertising to subvert your thoughts and ideas ... and most folks, that are not aware of the mechanisms behind the commercial ideas, will usually fall into this trap ... but few of those folks will EVER admit that they got suckered into it. I'm not opposed to "hit songs" and there are many I love dearly and have in my collection, however, in the history of PROGRESSIVE MUSIC, hits is not what the music was about, even if one or two pieces did really well and helped the band ... but heck ... YES was not known as "progressive" anything when ROUNDABOUT got out and FM radio in America played it to death. It was a great song, no doubt. And the band deserved the attention! I recommend that you study your relationship to the arts ... and separate the art itself from yourself ... while the idea of what you posted is OK, in the end, it is not exactly clear what you are saying and in most cases you are confusing the issue ... specially what is you and what is the art "over there". We learn this FAST AND FURIOUS in theater and film ... but only in a rock music board will someone say things like that and think they are right! And then try to use it to prove someone else is wrong! That is soooooooooooooooo PA, it's sad!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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M27Barney
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 09 2006 Location: Swinton M27 Status: Offline Points: 3136 |
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The argument that there is no right and wrong is the very definition of post modernistic mindset. Since everbody is right from their perception...ergo nobody is ever wrong either....philosophical dead end that can justify anything and condemn nothing...
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progaardvark
Collaborator Crossover/Symphonic/RPI Teams Joined: June 14 2007 Location: Sea of Peas Status: Offline Points: 48752 |
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That's admittedly something I've never tried before. With the naked eye or the telescope, usually they appear invisible making it difficult to shoot them. If the pants are baggy enough, they might puff out upon the release of a fart. You could time your shot this way, but how would you be certain you actually hit the fart? If the anus is pivoted in a different direction, that fart might not have travelled from the fartee on a 90 degree angle. It may have been more oblique. And let's not forget that there is a human on the other end of that fart and if your aim is off, a derrière might be in a lot of pain. One of the better solutions for shooting a fart might be to use infrared vision and a scope. This should alleviate the inaccuracy of an oblique fart. Just a thought.
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i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
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Barbu
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 09 2005 Location: infinity Status: Offline Points: 30845 |
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If I were you Mush, I would listen to what the dude is saying, he is a well-known expert in the field.
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M27Barney
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 09 2006 Location: Swinton M27 Status: Offline Points: 3136 |
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Well if you lock a cat in a box after giving it a food that sometimes produces lethal gases in the flatus. When you shut the cat in....it is neither alive nor dead...Perhaps thst is what the mosh is trying to descibe?
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