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Is prog opposed to the idea of hit songs?

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moshkito View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 10 2019 at 22:02
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

What I really find funny is somebody who goes on and on about "the arts" (as if he was the only one who knew about them), but at the same time does not recognize a reference to the Futurist Manifesto - believing it is something related to contemporary politics. FYI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifesto_of_Futurism

With all due respect, I'm even suspect of the Surrealism Manifesto ... I'm opposed to "being told" ... what has to be done, and should be done, and specially so by a commercial/industrial society whose folks know of nothing else, and many times do not understand the role of the artist in the 20th century... SPECIALLY IN EUROPE ... which is being ignored and forgotten.

Many of those "manifestos" are just publicity seeking articles! And trying hard to subvert and confuse people's ideas!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2019 at 01:26
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

It's not really meant to be an accusation and it is written with a bit of sarcasm, if you will. However, the truth is that many of the so-called "Collaborators" and "Admins", have a tendency to post ways to destroy the conversation and sidetrack the thread many times, also taking stuff I said and twisting it.

I understand the methodology of "management", as I did manage two restaurants for a long time ... and dumping employees would have put me on the training mode a lot, and I would not be able to move forward, instead of spending money in training new folks.

But, the collective, in PA, in general, and it's an observation, will post more on "hits" and "top ten" discussions than they will anything else, and the sad thing is, they don't even try to say ... I disagree ... LIKE YOU DID ( I appreciate that!) ... but instead ... it's not worth the discussion this whole thing ... because I do not see that many/some of the folks over there, will listen to someone/anyone ... saying something in here, sometimes, is the saddest thing ever ... because all you get is a "commercial" or what the Chinese used to call "Industrial" answer (Isaac Stern goes to China) ... and it is specially so when they do not want to hear/see that a comparison is showing something they wish not to hear or see.

It's fear of the unknown. It's fear of new music. It's fear of something unusual that you can not define ... and it's been the history of the arts for centuries ... except in one board, where a top ten is more important than the music itself ... and discussing HITS is way more important than the music itself or worse ... than the artist himself/herself.

Folks here are discussing hits they like ... not the music itself. There is a huge difference in my book! I don't even try to do that ... 

Pedro, almost every day, collabs add bands you have likely never heard about.  I say this confidently because they are new bands and not your pet obscure favourites from the 1970s.  They get added and afterwards, there's radio silence about the bands while the next set of bands to be added arrives.  So you are as guilty of this top 10 phenomenon as those whom you frequently accuse of it.  You have your priorities and lots of bands don't fit into them.  And this goes for everyone.  Life is short and there's too much music.  You can't force people to pay attention to the bands you would like to see discussion over.  And what will make that even more unlikely is you utilising every opportunity to lambast the board and its collaborators for so called top 10 syndrome.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2019 at 02:01
Is this thread even progressive?!

*Ducks tomatoes* 

Cool

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2019 at 02:44
What ruins forums is not when admins supposedly steer discussions in a way they'd like them to go, but when someone with far too much time on their hands spends it bombarding a forum with their own opinion, ignoring everyone else and shouting them down.

There is one thing in defending a point. There is another thing in aggressively stating a point (in the most obscure, unreadable and bizarre manner) repeatedly whilst feeling quite free to attack anyone with a contrary position - as if it's an assumed right.

Bad manners at best.
Trolling at worst.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2019 at 02:48
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

What ruins forums is not when admins supposedly steer discussions in a way they'd like them to go, but when someone with far too much time on their hands spends it bombarding a forum with their own opinion, ignoring everyone else and shouting them down.

There is one thing in defending a point. There is another thing in aggressively stating a point (in the most obscure, unreadable and bizarre manner) repeatedly whilst feeling quite free to attack anyone with a contrary position - as if it's an assumed right.

Bad manners at best.
Trolling at worst.

I assume you're talking about Moshkito here?

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2019 at 02:48
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

What I really find funny is somebody who goes on and on about "the arts" (as if he was the only one who knew about them), but at the same time does not recognize a reference to the Futurist Manifesto - believing it is something related to contemporary politics. FYI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifesto_of_Futurism

With all due respect, I'm even suspect of the Surrealism Manifesto ... I'm opposed to "being told" ... what has to be done, and should be done, and specially so by a commercial/industrial society whose folks know of nothing else, and many times do not understand the role of the artist in the 20th century... SPECIALLY IN EUROPE ... which is being ignored and forgotten.

Many of those "manifestos" are just publicity seeking articles! And trying hard to subvert and confuse people's ideas!



Nope, he's not heard of the Surrealist Manifesto, nor did he read the Wiki article. ;-)



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2019 at 02:51
Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

What ruins forums is not when admins supposedly steer discussions in a way they'd like them to go, but when someone with far too much time on their hands spends it bombarding a forum with their own opinion, ignoring everyone else and shouting them down.

There is one thing in defending a point. There is another thing in aggressively stating a point (in the most obscure, unreadable and bizarre manner) repeatedly whilst feeling quite free to attack anyone with a contrary position - as if it's an assumed right.

Bad manners at best.
Trolling at worst.

I assume you're talking about Moshkito here?


Sadly, yes.

Mosh, can I please - nicely - ask a favour ? This is on a gentleman to gentleman level here. 

Can you please think about "manners" before you go off on long, rambling "I-am-right" posts ?  Could you please be quietly right, as you're being so right so often and for so long that other people don't get the chance to be right as well. 

It really, really irritates them.

You're being so right that it's wrong.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2019 at 03:47
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

The biggest problem I have with these sort of discussions is that they tend to end up in barricades and strongholds - each of them trying to herald and vindicate the type of music prefered in said camp.
A pop song (hit) can send shivers down my spine and effectively open up a door to the universe. A Day In The Life still does that.
A prog piece can be dreary and completely bereft of zing - effectively conjuring up the same type of conformity most prog fans attribute to pop.
I love all kinds of music as long as there’s fire and ooomphh in there.

Building walls between different styles of music is like making warfare between groceries and we all remember the horrific end to the strawberry-bacon feud not too long ago. Let’s not go down that road. Music is supposed to be different like Janice once said.


Nice to see you after a very long time.  And I completely agree.  Try telling the millions who ONLY heard ABTW or Comfortably Numb on radio or MTV that the songs don't work without the context of the album and they would heartily disagree.  By the way, this argument is so antiquated in an age where streaming and youtube are the major ways in which music is listened to (while the LP is becoming a rather yuuge cottage industry again).  As I said in another thread, PA is sort of in a time warp bubble where nobody talks about the elephant in the room.  That without creating some viable revenue streams, the music industry is only going to survive in the form of two extremes - one, the big bad label produced pop and two, the bedroom artists who can no longer find live music venues they can afford or raise money to produce albums that nobody other than the campaign contributors will buy.  It little matters now who is opposed or agreeable to what and we ought to rather celebrate all the good music we can get and cherish it.


You too my friend - been far too long:)
As per usual you have a way of expanding on my posts so as they take on a far more succinct meaning. Thanks man.

Eh..thinking about all this also leaves a rather foul taste in my mouth as I too have been guilty of drawing lines in the sand between different styles of music so as to put my own tastes up on a plinth...yet music has no real endemic value - if it had we surely wouldn’t be the only animals to enjoy it. Every time we’d listen to music with open windows it’d turn into a jolly old scene off the old Snow White tale.

Listen, enjoy and love the music - be that polka, pork or the odd top ten hit that reminds you of your first kiss under the white light of the moon. Music is in enough trouble as it is - no need to dream up nonsensical opponents out of other forms of music. That is downright stupid imho and perhaps the biggest threat to new and exciting music.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2019 at 04:40
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

What ruins forums is not when admins supposedly steer discussions in a way they'd like them to go, but when someone with far too much time on their hands spends it bombarding a forum with their own opinion, ignoring everyone else and shouting them down.

That wouldn't be a big issue without those who feed him... the power to ignore, anyone?

In my view Mosh writes really valuable things once in a while or even maybe more often. Also there's his other stuff lambasting 95% of the world with special mention of PA contributors and collabs and I agree that that's not on, but this has been challenged often enough to know that he won't change. As long as he is not banned or censored (I am happy that he isn't) we have to put up with it. It's tiresome and annoying but being offended all the time must be quite tiresome as well...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2019 at 07:50
Hi,

Final comment.

I'm not trying to take down the board, and make PA look bad ... I'm only saying that some folks considered "colaaborators" or "admins" do not seem to have a sense of "manners" that I am being asked to uphold ... when they switch the discussion and example, into something else, in order to derail the thread and the comments.

I'm just baffled, in my own way, at how some of these folks do not really know the history of the music, enough to make a call on "progressive" ... because 5 minutes later they are posting about a "commercial/industrial" statement about the whole thing.

In my view, this ART is not being allowed to be who it was for what it was ... IT HAS TO FIT INTO AN IDEA that can only see and appreciate a TOP TEN and a specific set of ideas that did NOT have anything to do with the original music and its artists.

That does not mean, in any way, that some had a hit ... and did really well with it ... but it's sort of like actors on the street ... everyone you hear about or read, there are some 500 others starving and washing dishes somewhere ... and ... ohh too bad ... their music is no good anyway! (Those 500 couldn't act 5 lines kinda thing!)

And as the last posted comments say, new bands are being added all the time ... which I appreciate and no, I have not heard most of them, however, I bet that I have checked out more than half of them, since new music, new arts, and different things are a part of my catalog ... not top ten! And we know that those new entries are not top ten ... so why would most folks posting even bother listening to them, specially when their comments are less about new music and its differences (that helped progressive grow!!!), than they are yet another "vote" for that top ten assembly line!

I don't want to see PA gone. But Ii would like to see PA take a stronger stand on PROGRESSIVE MUSIC and help dictate a lot of its definition, instead of WIKI now holding that prestige, because we have not done a whole lot to improve what we have seen, and specially its history ... we still talk about ITCOTCK as an album of songs and hits ... not anything else, and it is not that at all! Even RF stated that it is not "progressive" ... and we don't agree ... and therein lies one of the reasons why I don't like to say one album is and another is not ... to me, the history and its events, are not showing why the music is valuable and important ... we only seem to worry about one smaller thing, at a time when FM Radio in America was wide open, and played so much European stuff and new music, which was closed down within 5 years, when that same FM Radio was bought by commercial/industrial conglomerates, and promptly closed down the avenue of new music and "imports" (in America), thus making it look like for a lot of posts here in America that PROGRESSIVE MUSIC died in the 80's ... duhhhhhh ... the best friend we ever had, was taken away ... that simple, and just like today, it only plays the same stuff in a supposed top list ... that you and I would never EVER believe in ... but we allow it, and think it's cool, because it is "there" and we are not!

This is about a fight for freedom ... in the arts ... and as one of my favorite films ... I call it ... LE PHANTOME DE LA LIBERTE ... as a tribute to one of my favorite films ... that does something with the stories that music, and specially rock music, is afraid to do ... bring it alive! We only hear the lyrics ... not anything else, it seems.

With much love and care ... continue your comments, and let someone else show you what art isn't when it is just a mechanical exercise! 


Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2019 at 08:50
Eh? Why use a few sentences when you can drone on for thirty paragraphs of usually opaque dogma?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2019 at 16:49
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Eh? Why use a few sentences when you can drone on for thirty paragraphs of usually opaque dogma?

I recall a long suffering publisher's reply to Gertrude Stein's latest droning, nearly unintelligible stream-of-consciousness manuscript.  I believe this rejection notice would serve well in this case, even if it is not entirely within context:

April 19, 1912.

Dear Madam,

I am only one, only one, only one. Only one being, one at the same time. Not two, not three, only one. Only one life to live, only sixty minutes in one hour. Only one pair of eyes. Only one brain. Only one being. Being only one, having only one pair of eyes, having only one time, having only one life, I cannot read your M.S. three or four times. Not even one time. Only one look, only one look is enough. Hardly one copy would sell here. Hardly one. Hardly one.

Many thanks. I am returning the M.S. by registered post. Only one M.S. by one post.

Sincerely yours,

(Signed 'A. C. Fifield')

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2dogs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2019 at 22:51
Well narrowing things down by rating and comparing albums or songs in an attempt to identify the best decades later is a completely different feeling to opening yourself up to a whole vibrant scene in a certain place and time, enjoying whatever you come across in multiple fields and understanding the larger context of that society.
"There is nothing new except what has been forgotten" - Marie Antoinette
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2019 at 00:11
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,



In my view, this ART is not being allowed to be who it was for what it was ... IT HAS TO FIT INTO AN IDEA that can only see and appreciate a TOP TEN and a specific set of ideas that did NOT have anything to do with the original music and its artists.

 


 

The top ten lists are normally kept in one place. Admin created that area of the forum for a reason and that was to keep it separate. It really is pointless to keep going on about it. If they got rid of this part of the site then they would just have to keep deleting threads and that's more work for people who are not paid for doing it. In any case this is a free world, you may not like it but others do. Why not just ignore it altogether? Is that so hard?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2019 at 00:14
Originally posted by 2dogs 2dogs wrote:

Well narrowing things down by rating and comparing albums or songs in an attempt to identify the best decades later is a completely different feeling to opening yourself up to a whole vibrant scene in a certain place and time, enjoying whatever you come across in multiple fields and understanding the larger context of that society.

Fully agreed but who exactly is doing the former? Are there then others who take these fun polls and top ten lists too much to heart?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2dogs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2019 at 03:55
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by 2dogs 2dogs wrote:

Well narrowing things down by rating and comparing albums or songs in an attempt to identify the best decades later is a completely different feeling to opening yourself up to a whole vibrant scene in a certain place and time, enjoying whatever you come across in multiple fields and understanding the larger context of that society.


Fully agreed but who exactly is doing the former? Are there then others who take these fun polls and top ten lists too much to heart?


I have done it, and clicked the stars on my iPod, it’s all too easy to get sucked in .
"There is nothing new except what has been forgotten" - Marie Antoinette
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2019 at 06:44
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Pedro, almost every day, collabs add bands you have likely never heard about.  I say this confidently because they are new bands and not your pet obscure favourites from the 1970s.  They get added and afterwards, there's radio silence about the bands while the next set of bands to be added arrives. 

Sorry about this slight digression, but FWIW, I check the newly added bands almost every day on PA. I add many of them to a list I keep of things I want to listen to. After listening to them, if I like it, I seek out a way of buying it. My problem is time management and I'm guilty of not having written a review in a long, long time. And I own a lot of things that have not been reviewed or have very, very few reviews. If I could only clone myself...

But if the collabs are reading this, please know that your hard work does not go unnoticed. I'm very thankful of the work you do and the newly added bands are something I look forward to every day. I usually don't have the time over the weekend to visit here, but it gives me my lone highlight on the first day back at work on Monday. Thank you for what you do. Beer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2019 at 07:05
Aye. Once you have ascertained which members have a similar taste to your own. You can see which releases have been favourably pointed by your peers....This has worked more for me in finding stuff I wouldn't have found otherwise...Its fun finding a new avenue of prog...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spacegod87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2019 at 07:09
Originally posted by Kingsnake Kingsnake wrote:

Gentle Giant didnt really care. They were even unable to actually write a decent popsong.
I don't know. 'Convenience (clean and easy)' is a pretty poppy, accessible track.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Braka1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2019 at 12:06
If it is, it shouldn't be.
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