Do you pay attention to the lyrics of prog songs? |
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M27Barney
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 09 2006 Location: Swinton M27 Status: Offline Points: 3136 |
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Well I'm with Douglas Adams...Disaster area songs, usually feature...boy being meets girl being beneath a silvery mooon...which then explodes for some unknown reason.
Seriously, lyrics are important is some context...BOEF has brilliantly constructed lyrics and well, Yes lyrics have a strange effect of blending into the music so that you feel they are just right... |
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iluvmarillion
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 09 2010 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 3236 |
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Lyrics can be intensely personal. What you see somebody else doesn't see. You don't want lyrics that are too literate. It's bad enough in the national anthems that each country has.
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14110 |
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I had written earlier that in 99 out of 100 cases I don't care for lyrics. However, lyrics can be very inspiring for creating music. Actually here's a strange thing from somebody who isn't normally interested in lyrics. In one of my music projects (the most "proggy" one) we do singing and lyrics. Actually both of us aren't that interested in lyrics, and we feel we don't have that much that we really want to say in these lyrics. Still, we always do the lyrics first. This is hard and painful, and I'm rarely convinced by these lyrics, however, they turn out to be inspiring. The reason for doing it like this is that the music composing goes much smoother and better after having some lyrics. The lyrics, although in themselves quite useless, initiate the music.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16163 |
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Hi, It depends on the context. In general, it is a two way street, since a visual can bring out lyrics (my case) as much as a nice set of words can as well, which sometimes is how a lot of my poetry starts ... may have had its kick on one word ... however, in my early days, I used to "float" on a lot of music to write poetry ... music, for me, consistently, creates visuals which make it very easy to write from ... and this is something I do not do much anymore, since now, a lot of silence is actually better to see that "inner movie" and write a story ... or if needed some lyrics ... but for me, the music would be "free" and not tied to a beat or rhythm, or a specific set of "song rules", which, in my imagination is totally bizarre and not exactly a good exercise to turn on your inner vision and expand it, so some more material shows up ... you can't use a "pattern" for these things, you just have to let them slide as they do, and later, if you need to you can add a pattern or two, but the original "sight" is very important and you can usually write hundreds of pages on it, not just one song! Prog, or Progressive, just like any music is guilty of over doing the lyrics to the point of someone using a line from one book, and essentially write a sermon behind it ... which to me is not cool ... I came here for music and the visuals, not the sermon!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Homotopy
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 14 2016 Location: Russia Status: Offline Points: 195 |
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Well, a few days ago I happened to put on some album and the music was ok but I turned it off due to the stupidity of the lyrics. And indeed for me wishing I didn't know English is a more common feeling than appreciation when it comes to lyrics. But most of the time lyrics are very abstract (random) and I don't care.
I really like when it's quirky though.
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2005 Location: Olympus Mons Status: Offline Points: 15916 |
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Generally, I do - some are thoughtful and profound, some are filled with fantasy and a vivid imagination, and some are angsty nonsense. Some are idiotic schlok, and I don’t know where to put some of those Death Metal lyrics.....perhaps in a morbidly comical amusing light. The music always comes first.
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11415 |
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It would be narrow minded or even downright ethnocentric to dismiss all the Prog lyrics in languages we don't speak or understand e.g. Ange (France) and Area (Italy) seem to buck the trend of implausible lyrics as a genre signature. That said, Peter Hammill, Steven Wilson, Roger Waters and Kevin Gilbert are probably the only English language lyricists associated with Progressive Rock I can think of that I take remotely seriously. Honorable mentions go out to Ian Anderson and Neil Peart who have tackled a wide range of political and social issues as subject matter far removed from the prevailing cosmiche fantasy w*nk of their contemporaries. I've long held the view that Prog was dominated by long winded instrumentalists who couldn't string two words together.
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Mortte
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 19618 |
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Outside French (mother language), I can read spanish, some italian and some dutch & german , so I could read the lyrics if they (lyric sheets) were provided, but rarely feel enticed to do so. OK, in the 70's, I couldn't have read Dutch, Italian or German, and would've struggled with Spanish, as well. I did get some nordic languages lyrics' translation back in the 90's (Anglagard, Sinkadus, Hoyry Kone, etc...) but came up empty emotively-speaking when reading them along with the singing. I don't have to force myself to listen to french lyrics (I'd probably have to force myself not to listen to them ), and Christian Descamp is certainly one of the best lyricist around when dealing with political issues However the theatrical part of their stuff puts me off... Problem is that ever since past Au Delà Du Délire, I don't find the music of Ange very interesting at all. So yeah, I still have a good souvenir of the Culinaire Lingus album, because many smiles were drawn, but musically I don't have any memories at all. I must say that for avant-prog, I don't pay attention at all on lyrics. TBH, even in Henry Cow/Slapp Happy, I didn't care for it at all. |
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2005 Location: Olympus Mons Status: Offline Points: 15916 |
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Thinking about lyrics - I’ve asked several French friends of ours here to shed some light on the lyrics of my Ange albums.........(Caricatures, Cimitiere and Au Dela.....). In a roundabout way, i got shocked faces. Who knows what Christian was thinking (or taking) at the time of penning this stuff.......?
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CPicard
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 03 2008 Location: Là, sui monti. Status: Offline Points: 10837 |
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I did pay attention to the lyrics when I was a teenager: I'm a metalhead since my adolescent years, back in the 90's, and there was all these scandals around black metal - not to forget the controversies around Ramstein, Laibach, etc... Furthermore, bands like Sepultura, Therapy?, Skyclad or even Biohazard (hey, I was 15!) hit me not only by their music, but also their lyrics (even if I needed sometimes to understand all the puns in Skyclad lyrics...) Coming to prog-rock and its neighbours, people like Frank Zappa, Pete Sinfield or Fish (I'm not a big fan of Marillion) have some lyrics who hit a string or two when I listen/read to them. Not to say that they always wrote splendors or clever stuff! But they are better lyricists than, say, Greg Lake...
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Hercules
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 14 2007 Location: Near York UK Status: Offline Points: 7024 |
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Yes, very much so.
Take Guiding Light by IQ - listen to the lyrics and the song has a really profound meaning which adds real depth to the beautiful music. Mind you, on some of their songs, I'm sure Peter Nicholls uses a random word generator. But the real killer lyric is this, from a band which is one of my all time favourites and whose lyrics are unusually deep and meaningful: It's not prog, but anyone who has lost the love of their life (and I speak from personal experience) can relate to it. If I had a shred of religious belief, it would give hope, but I haven't so I've just had to move on.
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Spacegod87
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I think it's difficult to ignore a lot of Genesis (Gabriel and Banks) lyrics.
Same with Peter Hammill. I think the more generic lyrics blend into the background for me and they really have to stand out, by that I mean, they need to be super funny/poetic/meaningful. |
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Levitating downwards,
atomic feedback scream. |
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cstack3
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As a lifetime Yes fan, I find that I run hot & cold on the lyrics.
Some songs (CTTE) still perplex me after hundreds, nay, thousands of listenings. Others (Wondrous Stories) are quite delightful. I still consider Jon Anderson to be one of history's great English poets, up there with romantic greats like Shelley.
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tdfloyd
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The music always comes first. Excellent lyrics can bring a song to greatness. Bad lyrics can totally ruin a song. Some are embarrassing, others like the Lamb are too obscure. Great music but I don't know what PG is getting at. Same with Supper's Ready. Knocks them down a bit for me. There are exceptions, I don't know what Jon Anderson is getting at half (most) the time, but it works for me.
Edited by tdfloyd - June 20 2020 at 12:40 |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16163 |
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Hi, This is a problem ... since there are times when many folks take on a much more literary tribute/attitude towards their words (and work!!!), and "knowing" what ANY WRITER, or ARTIST is getting at, is not something that is for us to know at all ... here's an example ... Mona Lisa ... she may have a bird brain, but her eyes follow you anywhere in that room, and let me tell you ... there are people that look at it and pass by that room really fast! And then, someone might do this as a joke ... you have been had! My thoughts always were that many folks wanted to take this a step up from the popular music mentality in both music and lyrics ... however, as the memememe generation came up, all of a sudden everyone HAD TO BE TOLD what everything meant ... for crying out loud, my friend, people are still trying to figure out what some of Shakespeare's words meant in so many places ... and all you are saying is that the WHOLE piece moves down the scale of appreciation simply because it doesn't spell things out for you in ABC, 123 format! I think that you will end up losing a lot of appreciation in music, and things like Jim Morrison are not exactly something that every one can understand ... 1) they are visually inclined words: 2) the poetic nature is more about the flow than the meaning you would expect: 3) some of these words were likely adjusted because they were all film/art students at University and they were very well aware of "literature" as opposed to just a song and so many poor excuses for lyrics in pop music: 4) a lot of these words were "created" based on Jim's acting strength with words .... |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Dellinger
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For me music comes first. But lyrics are always good to make the music even more interesting. Sadly, it's not always easy for me to understand the lyrics, since I'm not an english native speaker, and even though I may already know them, I can easily get distracted and loose track of them (sometimes I even get distracted with the melody instead, and just follow it and forget to follow the lyrics).
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16163 |
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Hi, The hard part is ... why can music be an "art" and the lyrics can't be an "art". I look at both as a WHOLE, instead of separate, although in many cases you can take the lyrics and read the words, and see the poem and the flow ... stuff that is written by folks that are REAL POETS instead of lyric hackers, show the difference, and you can point easily to Jim Morrison, and many others that made their music "better" because of the words that vaporized your ideals and mine, and forced you to see something else! Or Roy Harper ... I remember 10 or more songs from a word or two and there are a couple of long things, that I don't even know their titles! ... when the music is over ... sometimes the words stick in your mind as well ... but it wasn't the lyrics that got you! It was the dramatic sense and feeling that Jim gave you ... because you can relate to it! When it ends, stops or you wake up from the dream ... it's "over" ... and you want more and miss it a lot! The "best" material out there, we THINK that the music and the lyrics fit together really well, and it is instrumental to the band's criteria or the main writer ... you would certainly agree on this with Ian for example, although in my book, he is a much better actor that makes his lyrics seem even better, than they really are ... if you sit and read them or try to read them to a group of folks ... a lot of it falls down quickly. And this is a good measure, btw ... try it ... read the lyrics out loud to someone, and see how they react ... the good reads that come off well, will likely get a few questions or comments that kinda wonder what all of it is about (for example) ... but the ones that fall flat, you can see many other people go ... wtf is he talking about, or make bored faces quickly. However, to pay "more" attention to the lyrics, than the music is RIDICULOUS. It has to be taken as a whole and this is the reason why I dislike a couple of the "christian" this and that folks ... the quotes and words are supposed to make the music better, and that is fallacy #1 in the learning about audiences in any courses that deal with stage this or that, be it music, film, or theater! And in this case it bothers me that some folks think that the music/words are "christian" just because they are used! And that is some huge crock of illusion, that will NEVER teach you anything other than maintain the illusions alive!
Edited by moshkito - June 23 2020 at 07:24 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Droxford
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I always listen attentively to Prog lyrics as appreciate poetry. But feel that there is a difference.
Lyrics can really transform via music and the emotion a singer puts into them . Jon Anderson's lyrics are so personal that don't work for me if see them written down, but can relate to them when become part of the music of Yes. And if we can relate this to Rock music generally , the lyrics to 'Light My Fire' look hopeless if read on a page, but Jim Morrison had the talent to invest them with something more, same with Bill Withers ''Aint Not Sunshine' I am surprised how bleak a lot of the lyrics from the Prog era are -particularly looking at ELP, Pink Floyd, and King Crimson.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16163 |
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Hi, May I suggest that this is not quite a good interpretation. Going back some 6 to 8 years (then!!!), Europe had developed what was called "anti-film" and it also went to "anti-theater" and then "anti-literature", and a lot of the early "lyrics in ELP, PF and KC were almost (not quite) a sort of "anti-lyrics" with the same kind of results ... and in some ways, one could say that this was an extension of the psychedelic forms of wording and lyrics, the ones that defy anyone to declare some sort of meaning, since within that sphere of experience, there might be a meaning but it will change into another something else within the next set of letters and words. The other side of things, and it was clear in the use of Pete Sinfield and other poets, and many others, was the use of POETRY for lyrics, which changed how it would be sung and brought out. Greg Lake's deliveries in the first KC album are not exactly "sung" ... they are more about the expression and ensuring that the meaning is concise and clear ... and he did this all the way to the "Endless Enigma" ... we continually confuse these with "lyrics", the majority of which in so many top ten songs, have as much meaning as what goes down in the stool! My take, and I am keen on the relationships between ALL THE ARTS including rock music, is that some folks were hoping to do something different ... and yeah ... sometimes it seemed to work, and sometimes it didn't ... but I don't see anyone here say that ... Mona Lisa you got a bird brain ... is a sh*tty lyric! Or that Hunters and Collectors actually means "something" ... the point was to ensure that it DIDN'T mean anything, since everyone is/was expecting some sort of meaning and message ... 50 years later and we're still going around expecting some meaning ... and people not realizing how much of the stuff out there is just a crock of letters and words that gives a bouillabaisse a bad name!
Edited by moshkito - June 26 2020 at 07:16 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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