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What do you guys think of "The Final Cut"

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SteveG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2021 at 17:48
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Now, I may overinterpret some of the considerations above, but I cannot follow this discussion or reasoning of "what ifs"... The Final Cut is an album published under the name of Pink Floyd. But whatever... If it was under the name of Roger Waters or even Britney Spears, it doesn't change a bit of the music that is on that album (though Britney Spears fans might be surprised if it was issued under her name...).

Personally, I like TFC. It's not their best, but still very enjoyable. And yes, it announces (or continues, if you prefer) the direction Roger Waters went into. Fine with me. It is what it is; it's maybe not what you would have wanted it to be, but well, you're not Pink Floyd (or Roger Waters, or Britney Spears...).
Being released as a Waters solo album certainly would have made a difference in that it's overwhelming dour presence, without a balance of quality from the other Floyd members, would have been expected of this Waters dominated fiasco. Perhaps it would have been better as a Britney Spears album as the expectations would have been even lower and she would have put out a better album than she usually does.




Edited by SteveG - March 27 2021 at 19:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2021 at 23:54
That's the thing that makes Pink Floyd so great for me. Even one of my least favourite albums from them is, for me, a great album. I only wish they had originally included When the Tigers Broke Free and the two parts of The Heroes Return (I really like that song, but it's so short it's frustrating... hearing both parts together makes it so much better, but unfortunatley the second part was only released in a single. And then when they made the remaster of the album and included When the Tigers Broke Free, I don't understand why they didn't include the whole Heroes Return... if only they had done that, then I guess I would have bought the album again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2021 at 05:48
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Now, I may overinterpret some of the considerations above, but I cannot follow this discussion or reasoning of "what ifs"... The Final Cut is an album published under the name of Pink Floyd. But whatever... If it was under the name of Roger Waters or even Britney Spears, it doesn't change a bit of the music that is on that album (though Britney Spears fans might be surprised if it was issued under her name...).

Personally, I like TFC. It's not their best, but still very enjoyable. And yes, it announces (or continues, if you prefer) the direction Roger Waters went into. Fine with me. It is what it is; it's maybe not what you would have wanted it to be, but well, you're not Pink Floyd (or Roger Waters, or Britney Spears...).
Being released as a Waters solo album certainly would have made a difference in that it's overwhelming dour presence, without a balance of quality from the other Floyd members, would have been expected of this Waters dominated fiasco. Perhaps it would have been better as a Britney Spears album as the expectations would have been even lower and she would have put out a better album than she usually does.

Haha, yes... Pardon me the Spears anachronism, but you actually underline my point that judgments of this album often seem to be based on the expectations (the perhapses, what-ifs and woulds...) someone has/had rather than on the albums' music itself.
Which maybe raises the question if it is always possible to disconnect one's expectations from one's appreciation (critique/judgment) of music? Over time that is probably easier than on the moment of an albums' release itself...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2021 at 06:01
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Now, I may overinterpret some of the considerations above, but I cannot follow this discussion or reasoning of "what ifs"... The Final Cut is an album published under the name of Pink Floyd. But whatever... If it was under the name of Roger Waters or even Britney Spears, it doesn't change a bit of the music that is on that album (though Britney Spears fans might be surprised if it was issued under her name...).

Personally, I like TFC. It's not their best, but still very enjoyable. And yes, it announces (or continues, if you prefer) the direction Roger Waters went into. Fine with me. It is what it is; it's maybe not what you would have wanted it to be, but well, you're not Pink Floyd (or Roger Waters, or Britney Spears...).
Being released as a Waters solo album certainly would have made a difference in that it's overwhelming dour presence, without a balance of quality from the other Floyd members, would have been expected of this Waters dominated fiasco. Perhaps it would have been better as a Britney Spears album as the expectations would have been even lower and she would have put out a better album than she usually does.


I know it sounds Crazy but Sometimes, a Piece of Me wonders what Oops!... I Did It Again would sound like performed by Roger Waters. Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2021 at 08:53
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Now, I may overinterpret some of the considerations above, but I cannot follow this discussion or reasoning of "what ifs"... The Final Cut is an album published under the name of Pink Floyd. But whatever... If it was under the name of Roger Waters or even Britney Spears, it doesn't change a bit of the music that is on that album (though Britney Spears fans might be surprised if it was issued under her name...).

Personally, I like TFC. It's not their best, but still very enjoyable. And yes, it announces (or continues, if you prefer) the direction Roger Waters went into. Fine with me. It is what it is; it's maybe not what you would have wanted it to be, but well, you're not Pink Floyd (or Roger Waters, or Britney Spears...).
Being released as a Waters solo album certainly would have made a difference in that it's overwhelming dour presence, without a balance of quality from the other Floyd members, would have been expected of this Waters dominated fiasco. Perhaps it would have been better as a Britney Spears album as the expectations would have been even lower and she would have put out a better album than she usually does.

Haha, yes... Pardon me the Spears anachronism, but you actually underline my point that judgments of this album often seem to be based on the expectations (the perhapses, what-ifs and woulds...) someone has/had rather than on the albums' music itself.
Which maybe raises the question if it is always possible to disconnect one's expectations from one's appreciation (critique/judgment) of music? Over time that is probably easier than on the moment of an albums' release itself...
Again, I disagree. What you are referring to is an expectation of some style or sound. And I agree that artists have every right to evlove or change in that respect. What I'm referring to is an expectation in the album's quality of music, which naturally is greater for an Pink Floyd album than it is for any of it's solo members. Instinctively, fans (the intelligent ones) know that Floyd was a sum of it's creative parts, so the expectations for a Waters solo would have been lower. A good solo album would probably be considered as great also. And a passible Floyd album would be viewed as a failure, as many feel about the TFC, as evidenced by this thread's many negative posts.

Edited by SteveG - March 28 2021 at 09:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2021 at 09:48
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Now, I may overinterpret some of the considerations above, but I cannot follow this discussion or reasoning of "what ifs"... The Final Cut is an album published under the name of Pink Floyd. But whatever... If it was under the name of Roger Waters or even Britney Spears, it doesn't change a bit of the music that is on that album (though Britney Spears fans might be surprised if it was issued under her name...).

Personally, I like TFC. It's not their best, but still very enjoyable. And yes, it announces (or continues, if you prefer) the direction Roger Waters went into. Fine with me. It is what it is; it's maybe not what you would have wanted it to be, but well, you're not Pink Floyd (or Roger Waters, or Britney Spears...).
Being released as a Waters solo album certainly would have made a difference in that it's overwhelming dour presence, without a balance of quality from the other Floyd members, would have been expected of this Waters dominated fiasco. Perhaps it would have been better as a Britney Spears album as the expectations would have been even lower and she would have put out a better album than she usually does.

Haha, yes... Pardon me the Spears anachronism, but you actually underline my point that judgments of this album often seem to be based on the expectations (the perhapses, what-ifs and woulds...) someone has/had rather than on the albums' music itself.
Which maybe raises the question if it is always possible to disconnect one's expectations from one's appreciation (critique/judgment) of music? Over time that is probably easier than on the moment of an albums' release itself...
Again, I disagree. What you are referring to is an expectation of some style or sound. And I agree that artists have every right to evlove or change in that respect. What I'm referring to is an expectation in the album's quality of music, which naturally is greater for an Pink Floyd album than it is for any of it's solo members. Instinctively, fans (the intelligent ones) know that Floyd was a sum of it's creative parts, so the expectations for a Waters solo would have been lower. A good solo album would probably be considered as great also. And a passible Floyd album would be viewed as a failure, as many feel about the TFC, as evidenced by this thread's many negative posts.

It's rather telling that many here say the inclusion of "When the Tigers Broke Free" is the best song on the album, when the song itself was part of The Wall project and was rejected for that album because it was "too personal" by the other band members. Of course, it ended up in the movie as a conveyance to further the plot, but as a composition it fits in the Waters solo album The Final Cut. Richard Wright is gone, with David Gilmour and Nick Mason acting as union-scale musicians, adding parts but divorced from the whole.

Floyd at its best was when Gilmour and Water played off one another (great examples would be "Dogs",  and "Comfortably Numb"), but there is really none of that here. The continual half-speaking/singing of Waters becomes overwhelming and unlistenable. Gilmour's only real inclusion on "Not Now John" approximates that Floydish feeling, but it's ironic that Gilmour keeps repeating "F*ck all that, we got to get on with these", as if punctuating the vacuum and the coming divorce. 

There is nothing great about this album. There is no great Floyd song here: no "Time", no "Echoes", no "Wish You Were Here", no "Shine On You Crazy Diamond", no "Dogs" or "Comfortably Numb".  There is only the unrelenting whine of Waters, speak-singing through an entire album.


Edited by The Dark Elf - March 28 2021 at 09:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2021 at 11:37
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

I won't listen to it anymore. It is Pink Floyd's In Through the Out Door...or maybe that was Zeppelin's Final Cut. 

Same here....btw I have an original first US press if anyone wants to pay me good monety for it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2021 at 11:45
How much will you pay me to take it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote the-enid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2021 at 11:49
To me, it doesn't say anything which wasn't already, and better, said in The Wall.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2021 at 13:55
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

How much will you pay me to take it?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2021 at 05:50
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

It would have been great if it was released as a Roger Waters solo album. But alas, it was not.

Does that make a difference regarding whether you (or anybody) likes it or not? (Edit: Sorry, I reacted to this reading it on p.1, that point has in the meantime been discussed... anyway, I always try to listen to it without being affected by expectations coming from the name stuck on it.)

Personally, by the way, I find it... interesting... it has some potential, it's surely not a boring or derivative album and I can find new things on it that I enjoy, however I am very rarely in the mood to listen to it. I know other albums with pessimistic lyrics or dark mood music that don't usually make me feel bad, but The Final Cut tends to do that.  Probably it's too much of these vocals that are whiney indeed.


Edited by Lewian - March 29 2021 at 06:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2021 at 06:16
I've always regarded The Final Cut as a Roger Waters solo album anyway, and either way, I still rate the album higher than The Piper at the Gates of Dawn and Ummagumma. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2021 at 06:22
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I've always regarded The Final Cut as a Roger Waters solo album anyway, and either way, I still rate the album higher than The Piper at the Gates of Dawn and Ummagumma. Smile
yes, we know. I'm sure that you rate it high than Animals too.

Edited by SteveG - March 29 2021 at 06:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2021 at 06:42
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I know it sounds Crazy but Sometimes, a Piece of Me wonders what Oops!... I Did It Again would sound like performed by Roger Waters. Tongue

I would love to see Roger Waters cover Oops! I Did It Again, only if he promised to make a music video wearing a hot red leather jumpsuit and lead the choreographed dancers. That would make my day and put an unusual exclamation point onto his long career. Might even be better than the Waters/Geesin "Our Song."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2021 at 07:31
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I've always regarded The Final Cut as a Roger Waters solo album anyway, and either way, I still rate the album higher than The Piper at the Gates of Dawn and Ummagumma. Smile
yes, we know. I'm sure that you rate it high than Animals too.

Yes, you already know that because I said the same thing on your thread on the same subject, although Pigs (on the Wing) might fly before I'd rate The Final Cut higher than the classic Animals album. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cboi Sandlin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2021 at 07:43
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Now, I may overinterpret some of the considerations above, but I cannot follow this discussion or reasoning of "what ifs"... The Final Cut is an album published under the name of Pink Floyd. But whatever... If it was under the name of Roger Waters or even Britney Spears, it doesn't change a bit of the music that is on that album (though Britney Spears fans might be surprised if it was issued under her name...).

Personally, I like TFC. It's not their best, but still very enjoyable. And yes, it announces (or continues, if you prefer) the direction Roger Waters went into. Fine with me. It is what it is; it's maybe not what you would have wanted it to be, but well, you're not Pink Floyd (or Roger Waters, or Britney Spears...).
Being released as a Waters solo album certainly would have made a difference in that it's overwhelming dour presence, without a balance of quality from the other Floyd members, would have been expected of this Waters dominated fiasco. Perhaps it would have been better as a Britney Spears album as the expectations would have been even lower and she would have put out a better album than she usually does.

Haha, yes... Pardon me the Spears anachronism, but you actually underline my point that judgments of this album often seem to be based on the expectations (the perhapses, what-ifs and woulds...) someone has/had rather than on the albums' music itself.
Which maybe raises the question if it is always possible to disconnect one's expectations from one's appreciation (critique/judgment) of music? Over time that is probably easier than on the moment of an albums' release itself...
Again, I disagree. What you are referring to is an expectation of some style or sound. And I agree that artists have every right to evlove or change in that respect. What I'm referring to is an expectation in the album's quality of music, which naturally is greater for an Pink Floyd album than it is for any of it's solo members. Instinctively, fans (the intelligent ones) know that Floyd was a sum of it's creative parts, so the expectations for a Waters solo would have been lower. A good solo album would probably be considered as great also. And a passible Floyd album would be viewed as a failure, as many feel about the TFC, as evidenced by this thread's many negative posts.

It's rather telling that many here say the inclusion of "When the Tigers Broke Free" is the best song on the album, when the song itself was part of The Wall project and was rejected for that album because it was "too personal" by the other band members. Of course, it ended up in the movie as a conveyance to further the plot, but as a composition it fits in the Waters solo album The Final Cut. Richard Wright is gone, with David Gilmour and Nick Mason acting as union-scale musicians, adding parts but divorced from the whole.

Floyd at its best was when Gilmour and Water played off one another (great examples would be "Dogs",  and "Comfortably Numb"), but there is really none of that here. The continual half-speaking/singing of Waters becomes overwhelming and unlistenable. Gilmour's only real inclusion on "Not Now John" approximates that Floydish feeling, but it's ironic that Gilmour keeps repeating "F*ck all that, we got to get on with these", as if punctuating the vacuum and the coming divorce. 

There is nothing great about this album. There is no great Floyd song here: no "Time", no "Echoes", no "Wish You Were Here", no "Shine On You Crazy Diamond", no "Dogs" or "Comfortably Numb".  There is only the unrelenting whine of Waters, speak-singing through an entire album.

Wow I missed a lot over the weekend. I should have really kept a better eye on my OWN thread lolTongue! Anyways, I think using Yes' Union was a good example. It was less of a band effort, more or less a large effort. Lots of session players, lots of people who werent in the band working on this. However, like Yes' Union, i found that it gave it a different feel, something unique to all of the other Pink Floyd albums, something you wouldnt want for every album, but something that is interesting for this one album. I like both The Final Cut and Union too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2021 at 09:25
ooof! TFC and Union, a double whammy.

Edited by SteveG - March 29 2021 at 10:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2021 at 10:37
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I've always regarded The Final Cut as a Roger Waters solo album anyway, and either way, I still rate the album higher than The Piper at the Gates of Dawn and Ummagumma. Smile
yes, we know. I'm sure that you rate it high than Animals too.

Well...anything Paul rates low is certainly worth buying and one should avoid anything he rates high.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2021 at 10:49
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I've always regarded The Final Cut as a Roger Waters solo album anyway, and either way, I still rate the album higher than The Piper at the Gates of Dawn and Ummagumma. Smile
yes, we know. I'm sure that you rate it high than Animals too.

Well...anything Paul rates low is certainly worth buying and one should avoid anything he rates high.
Wink
You already own most of the classic British prog albums I've rated highly. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iluvmarillion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2021 at 23:12
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Didn't Roger Waters effectively become band leader from DSOTM onwards? The reality of a Dave Gilmour lead Floyd was not that great really. I prefer The Final Cut to anything after although I would like it more if When The Tigers Broke Free had been included. That's a total killer track if ever there was one. The inspiration left when Waters left.
I don't see it that way at all. Roger was the bass player and lyricist for the band and provided the concepts for the albums. David was the guitarist and shared the vocals with Roger. Both shared the musical credits for the songs while after WYWH Rick Wright retreated as a song writer. I don't see why one band member is placed above another on the basis that he writes the lyrics. The way a band should work is as a democracy.
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