Russia/Ukraine tensions - Any concern?

omphaloskepsis wrote: The Dark Elf wrote: Repeat after me: Putin is censoring his own people. Again: Putin is censoring his own people. One more time for effect: Putin is censoring his own people. My naïve little bambino, Putin is not interested in a solution,  His aim is clearly to annex the rest of the Ukraine that he had not already stolen.  Putin offers solution to end war. Putin listed four conditions to stop War in a moment-  1) Cease military activity.  2) Enshrine neutrality in constitution 3) Recognize Crimea as Russian state. 4) Recognize separatist republics- Donetsk and Lugansk as independent states. "The Kremlin spokesman insisted Russia was not seeking to make any further territorial claims on Ukraine and said it was "not true" that it was demanding Kyiv be handed over." https://www.yahoo.com/news/kremlin-says-russian-military-action-115703035.html

I'm sure the Dark Elf is aware of Putin's conditions, but he, like many intelligent people, doesn't trust him. Look how well he's honored the two "safe corridors" so far.

Edited by SteveG - March 07 2022 at 08:10

Sean Trane wrote: SteveG wrote: Sean Trane wrote: I can't find the post where Mickey slams those "leftists" apparently defending Putin and his actions. Of course, Putin is responsible for everything he's done since invading Ukraine. FTM, if I was +/- siding (for whatever my moral support mattered to him) on his side against NATO expansionism, he's lost all of it (my support) by going into action and actually giving NATO a reason to exist and wanting to expand. SteveG wrote: Have people here forgotten about Russian expansionist actions after WW2 where the Eastern Block countries and one half of Germany were occupied and controlled by Russia? In 1941, the USSR and Nazi Germany signed a non aggression pact. If Germany did not attack the USSR, the European countries and the US and Canada might have ended up fighting both Hitler and Stalin, as Russia’s aim was always to expand in Europe. These are the reasons why NATO existed and thrived after the fall of the USSR. No one in the West forgot any of this and a stronger NATO was the result and fully justified, as was the inclusion of several former Eastern block countries. Ukrainians may fear that their country will be Russian controlled once more but Polish citizens do not. Thank God. And thank NATO. I'll give you half a point for that. It was of course a good thing to keep NATO alive  after 90/91 (if only to keep things under controm between Greece & Turkey) and I am glad it still exists (but would like to see its HQ exit Brussels), but I really dislike the interventionist side of it (like going to Irak or Afghanistan), especially when strong pressures and internal sanctions are handed down.  For ex, Ford closed its Genk plant a few months after Belgium declined to go to Irak. 9000 jobs lost. . I'll give you half point for that one, so we're even.  9000 lost jobs - that 0.5 point in your favour still gives 8999.5 pts in mine.... But if you still think we're even...

Ok, it'll give you a full point then. Happy? 

Edited by SteveG - March 07 2022 at 08:09

micky wrote: tszirmay wrote: I already got into the fire earlier in the thread as well as being admonished ... yeah.... but consider it a badge of honor my friend I do

SteveG wrote: micky wrote: SteveG wrote: According to Fox News hack Mark Levin, the US/Poland deal to send old Migs to Ukraine has been derailed. I hope this is not the case. haven't seen anything on other sites since Blinken gave it a green light earlier today and you also might have hit on an old story from days ago. This fighter transfer has been in the works for nearly a week and have been several derailments previously.   Yeah, there's still discussions going on. Poland wants US jets to back fill what they give to Ukraine ASAP, and tha'ts the hold up.

Yes, Poland wants to be ready in case they are next, I don't blame them, there is a lot of history there. As for the people in the early parts of this thread that told me that my concerns and predictions, based on history, about the troop buildup were unfounded because the current Russian government is not the same as the Soviet Russian government. You were right, the current leadership is much worse.

Edited by Easy Money - March 07 2022 at 08:32

SteveG wrote: According to Fox News hack Mark Levin, the US/Poland deal to send old Migs to Ukraine has been derailed. I hope this is not the case.

I already got into the fire earlier in the thread as well as being admonished for being “ironically “ guilty of ad hominem attacks on certain political analysts, though i have also gotten praise for Insisting on easily verifiable non- opinions based on dates and areas. In this world of dis- and mis- information, it is imperative to understand what is true and what is fantasy . Why? Because this conflict will not turn into Nato intervention or ( hopefully) nuclear options but get ready for cyberwarfare that will not only paralyze electrical grids but possibly wipe out our internet access to any kind of news (thus thoroughly demoralizing the SJW and woke rank and file) . The best way to prepare against that sad prospect is to understand what will happen. The greatest weapon of warfare is Intelligence , leading to knowledge and therefore counter- measures . Enigma won WW2 . Awareness will prevent WW3   

Edited by tszirmay - March 06 2022 at 20:39

The Dark Elf wrote: 1) There is the MAD MAN, the new Hitler, the one who has only faults and no reason. The BAD you see in American movies. In this case, Putin. A megalomaniac and a narcissist. A tiny pudenda and perhaps mommy issues. Rides around on horses bare-chested. Has to look up at every other state leader (even the women). A billion dollar palace? Seriously? If he was not a dictator in power via fake elections, he'd be in jail for graft, corruption and, of course, murdering his opponents. But you're okay with Putin poisoning fellow Russians. That's not the sign of a sick and warped individual, is it? All in a day's work for your precious Putin.  2) We must take sides, support GOOD ONES, those who are right (the Ukrainian government, Zelenskyj) and support everything they ask for (weapons, entry into the EU and NATO), and despise the madman , which must be stopped, and possibly ousted from his throne Putin had no right to invade a sovereign state that in no sense of the word threatened Russia. Putin had no right to annex part of that sovereign state in 2014. Putin had no right to keep elements of the Russian military in Eastern Ukraine to foment rebellion. There is no justification. None. All your quotes from dead communists cannot obfuscate the truth.  3) Anyone who wants to do analysis (me), who does not see all the faults only on one side is automatically a supporter of the madman (Putin). Although, first of all, he said that the invasion of Ukraine is wrong and must be condemned. Tertium non datur, the Latins said. Again, what part of "there is no justification" for what he is doing don't you comprehend? Are you so far up Putin's political posterior that you can't even admit that he lied over and over and made idiotic claims that even made his oligarch buddies blush? 4) So you have to shut up (Dark Elf: "Stop", Steve G. "What is wrong with you"), censor those who don't cheer the madman, those who don't blame Putin, those looking for a solution to the war different from shipping weapons to Ukrainians, from sanctioning, from censoring Russian news sites in the West like Sputnik and Russia Today. Repeat after me: Putin is censoring his own people. Again: Putin is censoring his own people. One more time for effect: Putin is censoring his own people. My naïve little bambino, Putin is not interested in a solution, only on a specific outcome that he preordained when he massed 100,000 troops on the Ukraine border.  His aim is clearly to annex the rest of the Ukraine that he had not already stolen. And it is Putin's fault. Clearly. Without reservation. Anyone who says otherwise is either beholden to Putin for their career and entitlements, or someone who somehow nostalgically misses the wonderful Soviet architecture of the 1950s and 60s. Gosh, I miss those apartment blocks of good, Socialist grey concrete.  Like massive piles of dried dung plopped row upon row down every street throughout Eastern Europe. So I ask everyone here these questions: 1) Why do you think I keep reporting the analyzes of those who said that the enlargement of NATO to the East would probably lead to a war? Am I an anti-American? Am I a Putin supporter? Do I want to blame the US for the invasion? Why do I do it? Because you've evidently read Marx's Communist Manifesto far too many times and now mistake "Manifesto" for "pesto". Which would be far better for your pasta than Marx's beard scrapings. I have no idea why you bless Putin's endeavors, extol his every move and bless him for posterity,  when the rest of the world excoriates him (except for a few remaining dictatorships and Donald Trump - who I think has a love child with Putin somewhere).  I've got news for you, Ukraine is a sovereign state, not an appendix of Russia. They should be able to ally themselves with whomever they wish. It's none of Russia's f*cking business. This invasion is so outrageous that even once neutral countries like Finland, Sweden and Switzerland have ended their neutrality. Dude, you need to buy a clue.  2) Are you sure that sending weapons to Ukrainians from EU countries will help them? Are you sure? Are you sure this will not lead to the complete distruction of Ukraine and World War III? Or can doubts be expressed in this regard? So, just let Putin annex the rest of the Ukraine? And then what happens when he does the same with Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova and whichever former Soviet state he chooses, just so he can bring the old band back together again like he was Genesis or Van der Graaf Generator?  What then? There is historical context for this nonsense, and it starts with the Sudetenland. There is historical pretext for Putin's actions already in other former Soviet states. 4) Are you sure that Biden's invitation to Finland and Sweden to attend a NATO meeting was a peace move? Are you sure it only served to defend them? Are you sure that the good of Ukraine is to join NATO? Or can doubts be expressed in this regard? It is none of Russia's business to interfere with other sovereign states and who they want to do business with or with whom they wish to form alliances. None of his damn business. And when Putin dies (again, as soon as possible), perhaps Russia can join the EU and...oh, I don't know...become a lawful and respected country. The fact is, in 2000 Putin had mentioned an interest in joining NATO:  <span style="color: rgb18, 18, 18; font-family: GuardianTextEgyptian, "Guardian Text Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; font-size: 17px; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures;">“Putin said: ‘When are you going to invite us to join Nato?’ And George Robertson [</span><span style="color: rgb18, 18, 18; font-family: GuardianTextEgyptian, "Guardian Text Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; font-size: 17px; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures;">former Labour defence secretary who led Nato between 1999 and 2003</span><span style="color: rgb18, 18, 18; font-family: GuardianTextEgyptian, "Guardian Text Egyptian Web", Georgia, serif; font-size: 17px; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures;">] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join Nato, they apply to join Nato.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”</span> 5) Are you sure that Putin is crazy? And if so, were Clinton and Busj Jr. also crazy who bombed and then invaded Iraq? Are you sure that Ukraine Russia will invade other nations afterwards? Are you sure that by ousting Putin from his throne, a better one will come? What has history taught us about it? Can any doubts be expressed in this regard? Yes. No whataboutism please, it is the refuge of the dull - stick to Putin currently. Yes. Yes. That he needs to be deposed. No, stop it.  6) The sanctions on Russia: are you sure they will make Putin desist from the invasion? Are you sure they will not backfire on the Russian people? And if Russia annexes Ukraine, are you sure that the sanctions will not backfire on the Ukrainian people and on the Europeans themselves? <b style="">All Putin has to do is leave the Ukraine, and the sanctions will vanish. POOF! It is very simple, even for someone as jejune as yourself. There will come a point, and based on the protests already across Russia, the economic situation will eventually become untenable for either the common people or the oligarchs who will see all their super-yachts and foreign villas and office buildings impounded. Either or. And Putin will be strung up in front of a gas station. But not in Milan, this time in Moscow.  Reading some analysts, I have my own position on these questions, but I do not pretend that my ideas are recognized as right, becasu, first of all, I have many diubts on some matter. I just would like to discuss about these questions, about hat is good and what is wrong, and about the possible solutions of this war.  You don't want to discuss squat -- you want to argue and misstate historical facts ad nauseam (I particularly liked the one where you stated the Soviet Union did not control the Warsaw Pact militarily -- that was, as they say in the Southern U.S., a "humdinger"). You haven't expressed any doubts. You've pointed fingers at everyone but the only culprit of this singular crime. And Putin is a war criminal, a murderer of political opponents, and a corrupt swindler of his own people.

Bravo Greg. If I thought that Lorenzo was worth the effort, I would have said much the same. He lost all credibility with me when he quoted resident quack Oliver Stone and right wing kook Sergio Romano. The only thing worse then a right wing fanatic is a left wing fanatic. But I think you see this now.

Edited by SteveG - March 06 2022 at 18:40

I hope there will be another reply , thoroughly enjoying this IMPORTANT thread that some people use and abuse as a political sandbox , claiming to be analysis 🧐

Edited by tszirmay - March 06 2022 at 17:34

Edited by The Dark Elf - March 06 2022 at 17:40