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Could TLLDOB be considered proto- neo prog?

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AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Could TLLDOB be considered proto- neo prog?
    Posted: June 30 2022 at 07:13
I was thinking about how The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway has mostly shorter songs yet still is usually thought of as being full blown prog. It also has a sound (like the two after it) that probably influenced a lot of neo-prog. I'm not trying to discredit it's prog credentials here or anything but being how much neo-prog tends to be less complex and more song oriented I'm wondering if Lamb could be considered "proto-neo." I don't think it's the first neo album of course but I think it may have had a big influence on the scene. Opinions?

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - June 30 2022 at 07:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 07:16
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

I was thinking about how The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway has mostly shorter songs yet still is usually thought of as being full blown prog. It also has a sound (like the two after it) that probably influenced a lot of neo-prog. I'm not trying to discredit it's prog credentials here or anything but being how much neo-prog tends to be less complex and more song oriented I'm wondering if Lamb could be considered "proto-neo." I don't think it's the first neo album of course but I think it may have had a big influence on the scene. Opinions?
There's no doubt in my mind that the album was a big influence on early Marillion, but that in no way renders it proto neo anything. It was prog rock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Argo2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 07:36
I think if we try to invent one more sub genera of prog (Proto - Neo) the web site may actually explode causing bodily harm to millions of people across the internet. I wouldn't risk it ! LOL

Edited by Argo2112 - June 30 2022 at 11:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 07:51
Genesis were a big influence on neo prog, period.

Most of their songs are relatively short, compared to many of their contemporaries. The principle of segueing shorter songs into each other is clearly in play on The Lamb as it is on Marillion's Misplaced Childhood, and other later period prog concept albums.

At the end of the day though, 70's Genesis is just prog. No need for more granular classification IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 07:53
Originally posted by Argo2112 Argo2112 wrote:

I think if we try to invent one more sub genera of prog (Prot - Neo) the web site may actually explode causing bodily harm to millions of people across the internet. I wouldn't risk it ! LOL
This is true. We should be eliminating sub genres as a safety measure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldFriede Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 08:05
it is a concept album. it is not uncommon at all that there are shorter songs in a concept album when the incident to be described doesn't require a long song, the concept should be seen as a whole.

there are albums that almost completely consist of short songs but nevertheless are prog rock albums, for example "Lucky Leif and the Longships" by Robert Calvert


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 08:34
I tend to go with Trick as the album that showed a marked move towards short form songs. I realise there are way more on Lamb but as it's a concept album I prefer to think of it as more of a whole work which flows (there aren't too many gaps or spaces). But of course it influenced many bands not least IQ who did their own version in Subterranea.
As for Neo Prog it could be seen in the eighties as an extension of symphonic prog especially albums such as Script and Tales From The Lush Attic. Neo Prog became a more fully formed thing standing on its own feet around the time of Season's End and IQ's Ever which actually owe very little to the 70's. Later, Arena and a number of other bands then built on it. The Genesis thing becomes a lot less obvious at least to my ears.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 09:39
For the record, I was using the term proto-neo prog more as a descriptor than as an official subgenre. Obviously it's something that doesn't exist (unlike say proto prog or proto punk). I was just being speculative and wasn't trying to start a new subgenre or anything. Was Lamb the first neo prog album? No because it came out at least six years too early. It just seems to have a lot of similarities to what the neo prog bands were doing later on (imo). 

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - June 30 2022 at 09:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 10:00
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

For the record, I was using the term proto-neo prog more as a descriptor than as an official subgenre. Obviously it's something that doesn't exist (unlike say proto prog or proto punk). I was just being speculative and wasn't trying to start a new subgenre or anything. Was Lamb the first neo prog album? No because it came out at least six years too early. It just seems to have a lot of similarities to what the neo prog bands were doing later on (imo). 

I honestly don't see any similarities


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 10:07
Hi,

If neo-prog means shorter cuts, that is news to me.

Personally I find the definitions lacking and strictly defined by the song and its faculties, and deciding that the longer piece makes it prog and the shorter piece is neo ... is weird for me, specially when it is the same band, as is the case here.

Thus the request that we stop doing and discussing this and allow one definition for the bulk of the band's work so it makes sense as a whole and not just based on a song.

I, personally, do not think of long piece of music as the most appropriate definition for "progressive rock", although it probably makes bigger and better sense than otherwise, but immediately there will be a thousand folks trashing so much concert material from The Grateful Dead and specially the Fillmore bunch of groups that always expanded their work.

I do think that the abilities and creativity pushes the boundaries of the totality of the music within a band, and for me, after PG, Genesis stopped pushing boundaries except how much money they could make! And that ruins a lot of "progressive music" for me, because there were hundreds of other bands that tried really hard and did well, but would never get the appreciation that Genesis ws lucky to get.

One other thing ... a concept does not 'progressive" make and we should stop using that as an excuse. TLLDOB as probably a concept album, and it might have been better if PG had been allowed to do what he wanted a bit more, but I think the band stopped him from extending anything, and eventually settle for smaller pieces to fill in the story, which ends up being confusing and incomplete, and in reality is quite reminiscent of what became the solo PG ... all songs ... and he was not capable of creating something resembling a concept at all ... which kinda says it all.

But, neo anything, for me ... is probably the stuff that I listen to the least ... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 10:53
Neuschwanstein - Battlement could be considered proto or even straight up neo prog. ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mormegil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 11:18
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Genesis were a big influence on neo prog, period.

Most of their songs are relatively short, compared to many of their contemporaries. The principle of segueing shorter songs into each other is clearly in play on The Lamb as it is on Marillion's Misplaced Childhood, and other later period prog concept albums.

At the end of the day though, 70's Genesis is just prog. No need for more granular classification IMO.

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Rubbing sticks and pounding rocks was proto-everything!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 12:16
For me Neo Prog is more about the replication of previously established sound palettes--especially the sound/instrument palette created by Genesis for the Trick of the Tail and Wind & Wuthering albums. The Lamb was not really using this lush, synthy-washed sound palette yet. Bands like Marillion, IQ, Pallas, Pendragon, Mystery, The Dear Hunter, et al. use this sound palette to this day. 

I can see the OP's commentary reflecting the similarity of bands like Arena and to The Lamb's style, but perhaps Arena should be considered to be at the very outer fringes of the Neo Prog galaxy. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 12:25
"Proto-Neo" is an oxymoron.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 12:59
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

"Proto-Neo" is an oxymoron.

no, it is a "contradiction in terms", which many people confuse with "oxymoron". an oxymoron is a rhetoric figure that combines 2 seemingly opposing concepts like "bittersweet", "deafening silence" or "open secret"


Edited by BaldJean - June 30 2022 at 13:02


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 13:35
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

"Proto-Neo" is an oxymoron.
no, it is a "contradiction in terms", which many people confuse with "oxymoron". an oxymoron is a rhetoric figure that combines 2 seemingly opposing concepts like "bittersweet", "deafening silence" or "open secret"

Or "honest lawyer."

But the way we look at things here, I reckon it is the same. "Proto" means "original," and "neo" (for neo-prog) means "new," "revived" or "modified."

What Mike was implying would be "original-modified/revived" which in and of itself is a contradiction. Neo didn't exist in the '70s. You can't revive something that has yet to happen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 14:18
Ok, that's enough. Lol. I am not the first person to refer to Lamb as proto neo or as an early neo album. I can see where they were coming from and to some degree I agree. I was curious to hear what others have to say.  Now I know. ;) I have actually heard similar things about Camel.

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - June 30 2022 at 14:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 14:20
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Ok, that's enough. Lol. I am not the first person to refer to Lamb as proto neo or as an early neo album. I can see where they were coming from and to some degree I agree. I was curious to hear what others have to say.  Now I know. ;) I have actually heard similar things about Camel.

But you wanted to be the latest? LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 14:41
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