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Most Hated Sub-Genre of prog

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Logan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2023 at 10:32
^^ I like me some heavy music, thanks for the Celtic Frost, Mike. Right now I'm dealing with the church about my mother's funeral, and maybe that is making me a little more emotional about these things again. She wasn't much of a believer, but I grew up with the Anglican Church (Church of England). My wife was Pentecostal (we learned not to talk religion), and she was never really preachy and always was much more "liberal" than her old friends from the church (maybe I provided an out). Her church seriously creeped me out and concerned me.   Where I live the signs of religion increase significantly every year, which I find sad and makes me want to move (if it were not for the ludicrously high cost of housing in my region, this would not me first choice anyway. I waited too long to get into the market -- when my son graduates high school, then I hope to move). I love going to the temples in Japan, so I am not all against religion, and I have by biases. I'd be happy to see lots of beautiful temples with beautiful gardens springing up where I live; make this little Kyoto as Kyoto and its surrounding regions is where I have felt most like I belong. Anyway, I do have something of a phobia when it comes to religions generally, but I have an attraction to religion as well even when I see it as irrational. And I have liked to visit lots of historical religious architecture in Europe and Asia. Anyway, I don't want to turn this into another theism vs. atheism, secular vs religious thread

I have liked what I heard of The Royal Decree too. Good for them. I have preferred what I know of its recent music to its more classic stuff. I'm nowhere near as down on TFK as I once was -- like with Spock's Beard (which I have liked some music from), and Transatlantic, I bought a TFK album blind (got all of those at the same time) about twenty years ago based on recommendations and it was just not what I wanted. It was me then purchasing a Miriodor album based on me coming across a short music sample, and then getting U Totem that "saved" the modern Prog for me. That was what I wanted in my music then.

On another note, even within genres that generally are not for me, and bands with much music, when I have put in the effort and asked for recommendations, I have found music to like so I gnerally don;t like to be down on genres (there are some genres I dislike much of partially for ideological reasons -- I don't appreciate the message). There's actually plenty of Neo-Prog that I have appreciated even though I know it will never be up there with, say, Krautrock for me. If there are some Neo-Proggy bands that mix that style with a significant Krautrock influence (Can, Neu!, Faust, Harmonia etc.) I might like that and it could provide a gateway for me into the more Neo-Prog acts.

This, by the way, Brave, not Marillion's, or I should say The Brave, is my most disliked album I actually listened to all the way from last year (listenable and I have heard much worse).







Edited by Logan - July 18 2023 at 10:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2023 at 10:12

I'm not much for "hating" but Neo-Prog is not exactly my cup of tea due to rather much Pop-influence, synthetic sound, 
and beginning with typically "poppish" artwork. 
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2023 at 07:22
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I think there's no bad genre, there's only bad albums. Or as a corollary, there's great albums in all the genres. I agree that neo prog lends itself to boring music - it just goes with the genre. Avant prog on the other hand is rarely boring, but that doesn't mean it's automatically good - instead of boredom, the problem with avant is that it can easily be grating/aggravating/nonsensical, or the musicians are constantly playing music that it actually above their skill level, resulting in sloppy timing. 

So: don't hate genres, focus instead on loving great releases regardless of genres (or tags).




I'm not saying it's a bad genre, just in case that's not clear, and I have found music to like included in every category at PA, but of course as we not only don't tag by the track, we don't tag by the album, this music may not be of the sub-genre/ representative of the sub-genre it is included in. For me, Neo-Prog lends itself to cringe-y music and lends itself to mediocrity. I find it alienating as it does not seem to speak to my character. That kind of emotionality, those guitar solos and keyboards, its relationship with arena rock and AOR (as a a genre label), it kind of disturbs me.    I also notice that people into it tends to be into bands that I really actively have loathed that are not labelled that way here, such as Spock's Beard. There's something about the Neo-Prog style and related music that reminds me of having listened to music in a Pentecostal Church, and I get nightmares about going into such places. Afterwards I need to cleanse myself by listening to some Coven or Black Widow.

I love everything Neal Morse is doing, but being not religious at all I think I know what you mean. As you said, fortunately there are musical antidotes for that ...



Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:


As said earlier, those building blocks do not appeal to me. I do think you can have bad genres, there may even be a genre of music called Bad Music. That said, bad can be very good for me, think The Shagg's Philosophy of the World and Tommy Wiseau's The Room. Really bad I can love, it's the mediocre stuff that disappoints me which is where I would tend to place so much Neo-Prog. Of course bad often is subjective, but there are metrics that can be used.


Yes, in some genres the cards are kind of stacked against positive outcomes ... 

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:


Avant-Prog itself I find to be a sloppy label often as it is used. It's a big umbrella term label here and of course it crosses over into other sub-genres. It generally has characteristics like dissonance, density and complexity associated with it, and has had an influence of avant-garde art/ academic music. It is a very eclectic category here, and a lot of music is just thrown in there because it sounds kind of weird/ has certain quirky qualities. Like Eclectic and Crossover Prog, and the other categories to some extent, it is a mixed bag as it works (maybe at this site especially).   A lot of it I might just call Eclectic Prog (as this site created it) on the weirder side. The Eclectic, Crossover and Avant Prog teams often discussed submitted acts between the teams to decide n fit when it cam to evaluations in my day. A lot of people I think disparage Avant-Prog not because they are anti an avant-garde approach (this could refer to taking influence from earlier 20th century music movements or being progressive by pushing the boundaries an d experimental, which a lot of it really is not) simply because they think it is weird. And a lot of it does sound weird especially to an ear that is unaccustomed to such music (one might say much the same of nay music one is unaccustomed to, and sometimes you have to tune your ears over time).

Yes, the Avant section is pretty much a grab-bag for weirdness for the sake of being weird, with the odd exception here and there. A lot of really, really awesome stuff, but also a lot of fluff that might sound intriguing to people coming from non-prog genres, but once you've heard a thousand albums, you develop an ear for substance ...

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:



Anyway, in answering that remark about whether or not it's because it's not Prog, maybe it rather depends on what you mean by Prog. I consider The Flower Kings to be very Prog-by-style, but I have looked down on that (my wife called me a snob the other day, and I can be -- need to curb that). If Neo-Prog was more progressive with a small p, experimental, varied, less polished, I would like it more. A lot of it has sounded derivative, not organic, and generic to my ears. It can be too polished a product for me that can be too formulaic to my ears.

That said, this was not what I hate, but what I think is most hated by others, and sharing my experiences of the music. I have enjoyed some genuine Neo-Prog and I do not hate it even if a lot of makes me cringe and carries some bad associations to subcultures that I do not identify with, alienate me and even disturb me. So much of your appreciation comes down to what associations we have made.

The Flower Kings ... I love them, but their discography is really flaky. A lot of it is quite prog-by-style (as you might know, that's what I called one of my tags for assessing prog level at TYM), or you could even say prog-by-numbers. But some of it is great IMHO. Of their recent releases, I really liked By Royal Decree.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2023 at 07:00
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by O666 O666 wrote:

This not about music IMO. its about definition of sub-gens in PA . Most of them are not clear and its always made and will make trouble for young fans.
Imagine one young guy that like Marillion post-fish albums like Brave (for example!) read Neo-Prog sub-gen and try to find other bands with the same label and try IQ, Arena, Pendragon etc. Ofcourse he/she cant find his/her fav music between them.
Or in Psychedelic / space Rock and ..... its happen too. IMO PA must think about it specially for young fans.


The problems comes from not being able to multiply tag albums individually. I think anyone savvy enough can cross reference from other sources or check out a music sample to verify what a genre of any album is. That's what i do.
Yes . I agreed BUT I talked about PA.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edefakiel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2023 at 11:49
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Progressive Electronic for me. The majority of the music in this genre is either repetitive ambient looped arpeggios or weird sound design garbage. Boring stuff (YMMV).

I think only 70's progressive electronic was like that. The new stuff is pretty well produced and thought provoking in my humble opinion.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2023 at 11:32
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I think there's no bad genre, there's only bad albums. Or as a corollary, there's great albums in all the genres. I agree that neo prog lends itself to boring music - it just goes with the genre. Avant prog on the other hand is rarely boring, but that doesn't mean it's automatically good - instead of boredom, the problem with avant is that it can easily be grating/aggravating/nonsensical, or the musicians are constantly playing music that it actually above their skill level, resulting in sloppy timing. 

So: don't hate genres, focus instead on loving great releases regardless of genres (or tags).




I'm not saying it's a bad genre, just in case that's not clear, and I have found music to like included in every category at PA, but of course as we not only don't tag by the track, we don't tag by the album, this music may not be of the sub-genre/ representative of the sub-genre it is included in. For me, Neo-Prog lends itself to cringe-y music and lends itself to mediocrity. I find it alienating as it does not seem to speak to my character. That kind of emotionality, those guitar solos and keyboards, its relationship with arena rock and AOR (as a a genre label), it kind of disturbs me.    I also notice that people into it tends to be into bands that I really actively have loathed that are not labelled that way here, such as Spock's Beard. There's something about the Neo-Prog style and related music that reminds me of having listened to music in a Pentecostal Church, and I get nightmares about going into such places. Afterwards I need to cleanse myself by listening to some Coven or Black Widow.

As said earlier, those building blocks do not appeal to me. I do think you can have bad genres, there may even be a genre of music called Bad Music. That said, bad can be very good for me, think The Shagg's Philosophy of the World and Tommy Wiseau's The Room. Really bad I can love, it's the mediocre stuff that disappoints me which is where I would tend to place so much Neo-Prog. Of course bad often is subjective, but there are metrics that can be used.

Avant-Prog itself I find to be a sloppy label often as it is used. It's a big umbrella term label here and of course it crosses over into other sub-genres. It generally has characteristics like dissonance, density and complexity associated with it, and has had an influence of avant-garde art/ academic music. It is a very eclectic category here, and a lot of music is just thrown in there because it sounds kind of weird/ has certain quirky qualities. Like Eclectic and Crossover Prog, and the other categories to some extent, it is a mixed bag as it works (maybe at this site especially).   A lot of it I might just call Eclectic Prog (as this site created it) on the weirder side. The Eclectic, Crossover and Avant Prog teams often discussed submitted acts between the teams to decide n fit when it cam to evaluations in my day. A lot of people I think disparage Avant-Prog not because they are anti an avant-garde approach (this could refer to taking influence from earlier 20th century music movements or being progressive by pushing the boundaries an d experimental, which a lot of it really is not) simply because they think it is weird. And a lot of it does sound weird especially to an ear that is unaccustomed to such music (one might say much the same of nay music one is unaccustomed to, and sometimes you have to tune your ears over time).

Anyway, in answering that remark about whether or not it's because it's not Prog, maybe it rather depends on what you mean by Prog. I consider The Flower Kings to be very Prog-by-style, but I have looked down on that (my wife called me a snob the other day, and I can be -- need to curb that). If Neo-Prog was more progressive with a small p, experimental, varied, less polished, I would like it more. A lot of it has sounded derivative, not organic, and generic to my ears. It can be too polished a product for me that can be too formulaic to my ears.

That said, this was not what I hate, but what I think is most hated by others, and sharing my experiences of the music. I have enjoyed some genuine Neo-Prog and I do not hate it even if a lot of makes me cringe and carries some bad associations to subcultures that I do not identify with, alienate me and even disturb me. So much of your appreciation comes down to what associations we have made.

Edited by Logan - July 17 2023 at 11:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2023 at 10:11
Originally posted by O666 O666 wrote:

This not about music IMO. its about definition of sub-gens in PA . Most of them are not clear and its always made and will make trouble for young fans.
Imagine one young guy that like Marillion post-fish albums like Brave (for example!) read Neo-Prog sub-gen and try to find other bands with the same label and try IQ, Arena, Pendragon etc. Ofcourse he/she cant find his/her fav music between them.
Or in Psychedelic / space Rock and ..... its happen too. IMO PA must think about it specially for young fans.


The problems comes from not being able to multiply tag albums individually. I think anyone savvy enough can cross reference from other sources or check out a music sample to verify what a genre of any album is. That's what i do.

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2023 at 06:50
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by O666 O666 wrote:

This not about music IMO. its about definition of sub-gens in PA . Most of them are not clear and its always made and will make trouble for young fans.
Imagine one young guy that Marillion post-fish albums like Brave (for example!) read Neo-Prog sub-gen and try to find other bands with the same label and try IQ, Arena, Pendragon etc. Ofcourse he/she cant find his/her fav music between them.
Or in Psychedelic / space Rock and ..... its happen too. IMO PA must think about it specially for young fans.

By young you mean under 50?

Hi. Ha ha ha . No mate. I meant under 20-25 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2023 at 06:49
Originally posted by O666 O666 wrote:

This not about music IMO. its about definition of sub-gens in PA . Most of them are not clear and its always made and will make trouble for young fans.
Imagine one young guy that Marillion post-fish albums like Brave (for example!) read Neo-Prog sub-gen and try to find other bands with the same label and try IQ, Arena, Pendragon etc. Ofcourse he/she cant find his/her fav music between them.
Or in Psychedelic / space Rock and ..... its happen too. IMO PA must think about it specially for young fans.

By young you mean under 50?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2023 at 06:47
This not about music IMO. its about definition of sub-gens in PA . Most of them are not clear and its always made and will make trouble for young fans.
Imagine one young guy that like Marillion post-fish albums like Brave (for example!) read Neo-Prog sub-gen and try to find other bands with the same label and try IQ, Arena, Pendragon etc. Ofcourse he/she cant find his/her fav music between them.
Or in Psychedelic / space Rock and ..... its happen too. IMO PA must think about it specially for young fans.


Edited by O666 - July 17 2023 at 06:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2023 at 06:13
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

I don't the first part of this is true when it comes to personal tastes, which after all is what we are talking here. If the fundamental building blocks of the genre don't appeal to you then you are unlikely to like even the albums that are considered 'great' within the genre. If I check out Contemporary Country or Dance Pop I am not going to find anything I like.

Sure, everyone's free to like or dislike whatever they want. But *to me* there are no bad genres. I can probably find something I like even within Contemporary Country, even though I have no inclination to try right now Wink


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - July 17 2023 at 06:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mormegil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2023 at 05:41
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Back in the early 1970s, some in the USA referred to many subgenera as "Theater Rock."  

This video certainly shows why!  

Yep, and LOVED it!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mormegil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2023 at 05:40
Originally posted by Manuel Manuel wrote:

Any prog-metal that has growling vocals doesn't get my favor, at all.

This . . .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2023 at 05:37
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Neo-Prog, Prog Metal, Avant-Prog, Zeuhl all have got plenty of derision. I think generally, not just with the PA community, probably Neo-Prog would get the most derision followed by Prog Metal. Neo-Prog is seen as watered down commercially b*****dised insipid and too often emo symph meets lame and often ballady pop rock. I don't think that that it's not Prog (as genre) enough is the reason so many look down on it (lots of those people look down on modern bands that sound Prog-by-numbers or retro-Symph....), but it's not seen as very adventurous, is lacking in originality, progressive (with a small p) or interesting. It can be quite saccharine, angsty in a whiny way to my ears. That's how I have seen it at least and have seen similar sentiments from others. It made me cringe. Especially among those who are not into the more melodic rock and symphonic rock side, it might be seen as really tame and lame compared to so much other music Prog and not Prog. I know I like lots of stuff that maybe only falls under a greater, very wide Prog umbrella if considered Prog at all, and I generally don't care much for the most obviously Prog music, especially from the modern era (much of what I like in rock might be called art rock, and progressive with a small p). I had strong antipathy towards it. And while I know it will never be amongst the genres I identify with and resonate with me, I have liked lots of people at this forum who really like it, and that matters to me more than if I like it. If it weren't for my respect and like of them, my derision and revulsion for Neo-Prog likely would be as strong as ever. That said, I still want to connect with people who like it, so if I include Neo-Prog in a poll, it is not because I want to put it down or turn those people onto better music. That that happens is just an unintentional side-effect.  

Pretty much where I am, nice post. 

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I think there's no bad genre, there's only bad albums. Or as a corollary, there's great albums in all the genres. I agree that neo prog lends itself to boring music - it just goes with the genre. Avant prog on the other hand is rarely boring, but that doesn't mean it's automatically good - instead of boredom, the problem with avant is that it can easily be grating/aggravating/nonsensical, or the musicians are constantly playing music that it actually above their skill level, resulting in sloppy timing. 

So: don't hate genres, focus instead on loving great releases regardless of genres (or tags).

I don't the first part of this is true when it comes to personal tastes, which after all is what we are talking here. If the fundamental building blocks of the genre don't appeal to you then you are unlikely to like even the albums that are considered 'great' within the genre. If I check out Contemporary Country or Dance Pop I am not going to find anything I like.

The second part is certainly true, though I do think that some people who dislike avant assume they are playing sloppily when in fact it can be deliberate but still grating/aggravating. Though there is plenty of sloppy poor playing within the genre. It's just not always easy to tell the difference to those outside the genre. It's the classic complaint of free jazz, its just a bunch of people playing what the hell they like irrespective of what the other band members are playing, and, one mistake is an error, two mistakes is jazz.


Edited by Nogbad_The_Bad - July 17 2023 at 05:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2023 at 05:01
^ Thank you. But as long as you don't give anything to counter my "if" I will continue to cherish my prejudice...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2023 at 04:21
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Personally, I hate the overwhelming presence of those prog-metal subgenres like tech-, extreme-, post- and experimental-metal of which the progressiveness to my ears is generally accessory instead of a constitutive element of the music. If tempo changes suffice to consider something prog, that seems to me a bit week... Keep them at the neighbours where their presence is much more pertinent.

Excellent trolling skills! Well, fortunately your "if" assumption is wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2023 at 01:35
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I think there's no bad genre, there's only bad albums. Or as a corollary, there's great albums in all the genres.
Is that how you think about all music-genres in general, or for prog-genres exclusively?
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

I agree that neo prog lends itself to boring music - it just goes with the genre.

If it just goes with the genre, that sounds like a bad genre to me.
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

So: don't hate genres, focus instead on loving great releases regardless of genres (or tags).
I think we all focus on that, except for when we're posting our opinions under the topic "Most Hated Sub-Genre of prog"



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2023 at 01:28
Turning things around, these are my ten most-loved sub-genres of prog

01. Symphonic Prog
02. Neo Prog
03. Prog Folk
04. Psychedelic/Space Rock
05. Proto Prog
06. Crossover Prog 
07. Krautrock
08. Heavy Prog
09. Jazz Rock/Fusion
10. Progressive Electronic
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2023 at 01:12
^ I think there's no bad genre, there's only bad albums. Or as a corollary, there's great albums in all the genres. I agree that neo prog lends itself to boring music - it just goes with the genre. Avant prog on the other hand is rarely boring, but that doesn't mean it's automatically good - instead of boredom, the problem with avant is that it can easily be grating/aggravating/nonsensical, or the musicians are constantly playing music that it actually above their skill level, resulting in sloppy timing. 

So: don't hate genres, focus instead on loving great releases regardless of genres (or tags).


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2023 at 21:30
Neo-Prog, Prog Metal, Avant-Prog, Zeuhl all have got plenty of derision. I think generally, not just with the PA community, probably Neo-Prog would get the most derision followed by Prog Metal. Neo-Prog is seen as watered down commercially b*****dised insipid and too often emo symph meets lame and often ballady pop rock. I don't think that that it's not Prog (as genre) enough is the reason so many look down on it (lots of those people look down on modern bands that sound Prog-by-numbers or retro-Symph....), but it's not seen as very adventurous, is lacking in originality, progressive (with a small p) or interesting. It can be quite saccharine, angsty in a whiny way to my ears. That's how I have seen it at least and have seen similar sentiments from others. It made me cringe. Especially among those who are not into the more melodic rock and symphonic rock side, it might be seen as really tame and lame compared to so much other music Prog and not Prog. I know I like lots of stuff that maybe only falls under a greater, very wide Prog umbrella if considered Prog at all, and I generally don't care much for the most obviously Prog music, especially from the modern era (much of what I like in rock might be called art rock, and progressive with a small p). I had strong antipathy towards it. And while I know it will never be amongst the genres I identify with and resonate with me, I have liked lots of people at this forum who really like it, and that matters to me more than if I like it. If it weren't for my respect and like of them, my derision and revulsion for Neo-Prog likely would be as strong as ever. That said, I still want to connect with people who like it, so if I include Neo-Prog in a poll, it is not because I want to put it down or turn those people onto better music. That that happens is just an unintentional side-effect.

Edited by Logan - July 16 2023 at 21:56
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