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Most Hated Sub-Genre of prog

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2023 at 07:22
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I think there's no bad genre, there's only bad albums. Or as a corollary, there's great albums in all the genres. I agree that neo prog lends itself to boring music - it just goes with the genre. Avant prog on the other hand is rarely boring, but that doesn't mean it's automatically good - instead of boredom, the problem with avant is that it can easily be grating/aggravating/nonsensical, or the musicians are constantly playing music that it actually above their skill level, resulting in sloppy timing. 

So: don't hate genres, focus instead on loving great releases regardless of genres (or tags).




I'm not saying it's a bad genre, just in case that's not clear, and I have found music to like included in every category at PA, but of course as we not only don't tag by the track, we don't tag by the album, this music may not be of the sub-genre/ representative of the sub-genre it is included in. For me, Neo-Prog lends itself to cringe-y music and lends itself to mediocrity. I find it alienating as it does not seem to speak to my character. That kind of emotionality, those guitar solos and keyboards, its relationship with arena rock and AOR (as a a genre label), it kind of disturbs me.    I also notice that people into it tends to be into bands that I really actively have loathed that are not labelled that way here, such as Spock's Beard. There's something about the Neo-Prog style and related music that reminds me of having listened to music in a Pentecostal Church, and I get nightmares about going into such places. Afterwards I need to cleanse myself by listening to some Coven or Black Widow.

I love everything Neal Morse is doing, but being not religious at all I think I know what you mean. As you said, fortunately there are musical antidotes for that ...



Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:


As said earlier, those building blocks do not appeal to me. I do think you can have bad genres, there may even be a genre of music called Bad Music. That said, bad can be very good for me, think The Shagg's Philosophy of the World and Tommy Wiseau's The Room. Really bad I can love, it's the mediocre stuff that disappoints me which is where I would tend to place so much Neo-Prog. Of course bad often is subjective, but there are metrics that can be used.


Yes, in some genres the cards are kind of stacked against positive outcomes ... 

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:


Avant-Prog itself I find to be a sloppy label often as it is used. It's a big umbrella term label here and of course it crosses over into other sub-genres. It generally has characteristics like dissonance, density and complexity associated with it, and has had an influence of avant-garde art/ academic music. It is a very eclectic category here, and a lot of music is just thrown in there because it sounds kind of weird/ has certain quirky qualities. Like Eclectic and Crossover Prog, and the other categories to some extent, it is a mixed bag as it works (maybe at this site especially).   A lot of it I might just call Eclectic Prog (as this site created it) on the weirder side. The Eclectic, Crossover and Avant Prog teams often discussed submitted acts between the teams to decide n fit when it cam to evaluations in my day. A lot of people I think disparage Avant-Prog not because they are anti an avant-garde approach (this could refer to taking influence from earlier 20th century music movements or being progressive by pushing the boundaries an d experimental, which a lot of it really is not) simply because they think it is weird. And a lot of it does sound weird especially to an ear that is unaccustomed to such music (one might say much the same of nay music one is unaccustomed to, and sometimes you have to tune your ears over time).

Yes, the Avant section is pretty much a grab-bag for weirdness for the sake of being weird, with the odd exception here and there. A lot of really, really awesome stuff, but also a lot of fluff that might sound intriguing to people coming from non-prog genres, but once you've heard a thousand albums, you develop an ear for substance ...

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:



Anyway, in answering that remark about whether or not it's because it's not Prog, maybe it rather depends on what you mean by Prog. I consider The Flower Kings to be very Prog-by-style, but I have looked down on that (my wife called me a snob the other day, and I can be -- need to curb that). If Neo-Prog was more progressive with a small p, experimental, varied, less polished, I would like it more. A lot of it has sounded derivative, not organic, and generic to my ears. It can be too polished a product for me that can be too formulaic to my ears.

That said, this was not what I hate, but what I think is most hated by others, and sharing my experiences of the music. I have enjoyed some genuine Neo-Prog and I do not hate it even if a lot of makes me cringe and carries some bad associations to subcultures that I do not identify with, alienate me and even disturb me. So much of your appreciation comes down to what associations we have made.

The Flower Kings ... I love them, but their discography is really flaky. A lot of it is quite prog-by-style (as you might know, that's what I called one of my tags for assessing prog level at TYM), or you could even say prog-by-numbers. But some of it is great IMHO. Of their recent releases, I really liked By Royal Decree.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2023 at 10:12

I'm not much for "hating" but Neo-Prog is not exactly my cup of tea due to rather much Pop-influence, synthetic sound, 
and beginning with typically "poppish" artwork. 
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2023 at 10:32
^^ I like me some heavy music, thanks for the Celtic Frost, Mike. Right now I'm dealing with the church about my mother's funeral, and maybe that is making me a little more emotional about these things again. She wasn't much of a believer, but I grew up with the Anglican Church (Church of England). My wife was Pentecostal (we learned not to talk religion), and she was never really preachy and always was much more "liberal" than her old friends from the church (maybe I provided an out). Her church seriously creeped me out and concerned me.   Where I live the signs of religion increase significantly every year, which I find sad and makes me want to move (if it were not for the ludicrously high cost of housing in my region, this would not me first choice anyway. I waited too long to get into the market -- when my son graduates high school, then I hope to move). I love going to the temples in Japan, so I am not all against religion, and I have by biases. I'd be happy to see lots of beautiful temples with beautiful gardens springing up where I live; make this little Kyoto as Kyoto and its surrounding regions is where I have felt most like I belong. Anyway, I do have something of a phobia when it comes to religions generally, but I have an attraction to religion as well even when I see it as irrational. And I have liked to visit lots of historical religious architecture in Europe and Asia. Anyway, I don't want to turn this into another theism vs. atheism, secular vs religious thread

I have liked what I heard of The Royal Decree too. Good for them. I have preferred what I know of its recent music to its more classic stuff. I'm nowhere near as down on TFK as I once was -- like with Spock's Beard (which I have liked some music from), and Transatlantic, I bought a TFK album blind (got all of those at the same time) about twenty years ago based on recommendations and it was just not what I wanted. It was me then purchasing a Miriodor album based on me coming across a short music sample, and then getting U Totem that "saved" the modern Prog for me. That was what I wanted in my music then.

On another note, even within genres that generally are not for me, and bands with much music, when I have put in the effort and asked for recommendations, I have found music to like so I gnerally don;t like to be down on genres (there are some genres I dislike much of partially for ideological reasons -- I don't appreciate the message). There's actually plenty of Neo-Prog that I have appreciated even though I know it will never be up there with, say, Krautrock for me. If there are some Neo-Proggy bands that mix that style with a significant Krautrock influence (Can, Neu!, Faust, Harmonia etc.) I might like that and it could provide a gateway for me into the more Neo-Prog acts.

This, by the way, Brave, not Marillion's, or I should say The Brave, is my most disliked album I actually listened to all the way from last year (listenable and I have heard much worse).







Edited by Logan - July 18 2023 at 10:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progishness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2023 at 11:40
For me the core sub-genres of prog (which form the bulk of my collection) are: Canterbury Scene, Crossover Prog, Eclectic Prog, Heavy Prog, Prog Folk, Progressive Electronic, Psychedelic/Space Rock, Symphonic Prog

Anything else I can pretty much take or leave, with most Avant/RIO and Zheul being pretty much unlistenable to my ears, and never normally going anywhere near the metal sub genres.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duddick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2023 at 15:47
I just really dislike anything metal-based. I just cannot see the appeal? Each to their own I suppose…..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2023 at 01:03
Ok, but the question was about if there is a consensus on which sub-genre is the most disliked OVERALL. No one is asking us to list any of our least favorite genres INDIVIDUALLY.

If we're talkin on the forums here, one would have to look at the extremes. Neo and RIO get he most hate from the different ends of the spectrum. 

If we're talking outside the forums and more in the general eclectic music-listening sphere, that's a more complicated question.


Edited by Awesoreno - July 19 2023 at 01:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2023 at 01:38
Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

Ok, but the question was about if there is a consensus on which sub-genre is the most disliked OVERALL. No one is asking us to list any of our least favorite genres INDIVIDUALLY.
I think most of us understand that. But the answers you get will be based of personal preference in combination with personal experience anyway. What else can you expect? My impression is that Neo Prog (and Prog Metal) is the most hated - or disliked. Unsurprisingly I "and everyone I know" strongly dislike everything Neo too. Others, in their experience will feel that it's RIO/Avant. Partly because they can't stand it themselves. It's hard to avoid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2023 at 05:47
Quote k, but the question was about if there is a consensus on which sub-genre is the most disliked OVERALL.
Personally, I can only speak for myself tbh.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2023 at 06:58
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

^^ I like me some heavy music, thanks for the Celtic Frost, Mike. Right now I'm dealing with the church about my mother's funeral, and maybe that is making me a little more emotional about these things again. She wasn't much of a believer, but I grew up with the Anglican Church (Church of England). My wife was Pentecostal (we learned not to talk religion), and she was never really preachy and always was much more "liberal" than her old friends from the church (maybe I provided an out). Her church seriously creeped me out and concerned me.   Where I live the signs of religion increase significantly every year, which I find sad and makes me want to move (if it were not for the ludicrously high cost of housing in my region, this would not me first choice anyway. I waited too long to get into the market -- when my son graduates high school, then I hope to move). I love going to the temples in Japan, so I am not all against religion, and I have by biases. I'd be happy to see lots of beautiful temples with beautiful gardens springing up where I live; make this little Kyoto as Kyoto and its surrounding regions is where I have felt most like I belong. Anyway, I do have something of a phobia when it comes to religions generally, but I have an attraction to religion as well even when I see it as irrational. And I have liked to visit lots of historical religious architecture in Europe and Asia. Anyway, I don't want to turn this into another theism vs. atheism, secular vs religious thread

......





Hi Logan . So sorry for your lost . I know what is this deep grief.

I believe no one here don't know how "Religious" minds can be dangerous for people . I trapped in Iran as a Iranian under wild brutal Islamic regime that want push a big nation to the heaven with militia organizations!!! How can I explain it clearly?! They shut down Internet and send parasite on satellite frequencies and filtered too many sites and social networks. They forced women to Hijab and....
I am not muslim but I born as a muslim and I don't choose my religion and honestly I hate all Religions because I read about most of them and I found everytime one religion reach to power , believers of that religion did and do and will do horrible and wild and brutal works against people . They kill FREEDOM easily ...
I love music specially Progressive Rock music and I living with it over 40 years with too many troubles that one Islamic religion made for me and guys like me. We are victim in 21 century ....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2023 at 10:35
Yeah....hates a strong word but I dislike these for the most part.....
Tech extreme prog metal
Prog metal
Exp post metal
Post rock math rock
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2023 at 11:18
Originally posted by O666 O666 wrote:

Hi Logan . So sorry for your lost . I know what is this deep grief.

I believe no one here don't know how "Religious" minds can be dangerous for people . I trapped in Iran as a Iranian under wild brutal Islamic regime that want push a big nation to the heaven with militia organizations!!! How can I explain it clearly?! They shut down Internet and send parasite on satellite frequencies and filtered too many sites and social networks. They forced women to Hijab and....
I am not muslim but I born as a muslim and I don't choose my religion and honestly I hate all Religions because I read about most of them and I found everytime one religion reach to power , believers of that religion did and do and will do horrible and wild and brutal works against people . They kill FREEDOM easily ...
I love music specially Progressive Rock music and I living with it over 40 years with too many troubles that one Islamic religion made for me and guys like me. We are victim in 21 century ....


Thanks you so much, it means a lot. Sadly, this kind of grief is par for the course and it is in these times that many people turn to religion for comfort.

I feel so bad about Iran's situation. My best friend was Persian (born Muslim, dad was an ambassador before Khomeini) and I had lots of Persian people who were very close to me -- Vancouver has a significant Persian population.   With my friends and my parents friends, their families fled when the Ayatollah Khomeini took power. I was so sickened by the news here when women were being treated so inhumanely for not wanting to be forced to wear the hijab in Iran, that to balance the news they had other women talking about the "freedom" of wearing the hijab. And of course I am sickened about the penalties and persecution that many ex-Muslims have faced. I have heard from various Christians about the extreme intolerance of the non-believers, and of course you find those, but the most dangerous intolerance I have found is largely from the believers. We're in a strange society where many also have become very tolerant of the intolerant and if not religious think it is racist (for some reason) or phobic to be critical of certain religions. And I know someone who was born into a Jehovah's Witnesses family and having stated that she doesn't believe in it, she was shunned and pushed out by her family. And of course the apostates are in mortal danger in places.

As for this topic, as said, from my experience, it has been Neo-Prog and Prog Metal, and Avant-Prog and Zeuhl next to that. Indo-Prog/Raga Rock has got many negative comments, but mostly, sadly, it's ignored. Krautock gets negativity mostly for the name. Some hate that the classifications we use here, and that's another issue. I never thought of, say, Eclectic Prog as a genre, it's a category we use to organise things. If we used multi-tagging, I very much doubt we would have that or Crossover Prog.

Edited by Logan - July 19 2023 at 11:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2023 at 15:00
^ Also really sorry for your loss. As far as religion is concerned, Even though I am (still) an atheist, I've recently, mostly thanks to Jordan Peterson, expanded my horizon a little bit. Turns out that you really can't get from an "is" to an "ought", as much as people like Sam Harris would like that to be the case. So while I'm still not religious, I can see what (decent) people see in religion - it's above all a sense of meaning and purpose. But I digress ...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2023 at 15:14
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ Also really sorry for your loss. As far as religion is concerned, Even though I am (still) an atheist, I've recently, mostly thanks to Jordan Peterson, expanded my horizon a little bit. Turns out that you really can't get from an "is" to an "ought", as much as people like Sam Harris would like that to be the case. So while I'm still not religious, I can see what (decent) people see in religion - it's above all a sense of meaning and purpose. But I digress ...




Oh God, sorry, force of habit, I dislike Jordan Peterson (maybe with more digging I would like something by him.) He's quite focused on Jungian archetypes as I recall, and he got a fame as cause célèbre, along with some other professors/ instructors. I joined Sam Harris forum (that grew out of Project Reason) for a short time explaining what I did not like about Peterson or the discussion in his podcast with him. While I used to listen to Sam Harris' podcast "religiously" (discovered him because of Hitchens, so wish he was still around, and Dawkins) but I then stopped mostly after the podcasts became subscriber content. Also some of his associations like Brett Weinstein put a bad taste in my mouth (or maybe that was the horse urine).

Edited by Logan - July 19 2023 at 15:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stressed Cheese Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2023 at 16:02
Jordan Peterson is an alt-right grifter, disgraced "scientist" and much like similar figures like Musk seems to make it his only goal in life to spread as much backwards, transphobic, climate-change-denying, misanthropic, "traditional/masculine values" bullsh*t online as he can to impress on naive young boys who look up to him because he sells them the both idea and the solution to the notion that they aren't allowed to be masculine in today's world. Either stay as far away from him as you can, or, if you're morbidly curious, take whatever he tells you and do/believe the exact opposite. He's definitely in the worst sub-genre of human life.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote altered_beast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2023 at 19:49
At least Progressive Rock Boy Bands don’t exist. If they did I know what I would have something extra to hate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2023 at 20:03
Originally posted by altered_beast altered_beast wrote:

At least Progressive Rock Boy Bands don’t exist. If they did I know what I would have something extra to hate.


Lucky thing The Beatles are in Proto-Prog as they are sometimes known as the first or an early boy band.

That said, there is Bacamarte Boys, Neu! Kids Crimson on the Block, One Shot Direction, and of course Meshuggah... If one considers Meshuggah Progressive Rock, that is.



Edited by Logan - July 19 2023 at 20:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2023 at 23:44
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ Also really sorry for your loss. As far as religion is concerned, Even though I am (still) an atheist, I've recently, mostly thanks to Jordan Peterson, expanded my horizon a little bit. Turns out that you really can't get from an "is" to an "ought", as much as people like Sam Harris would like that to be the case. So while I'm still not religious, I can see what (decent) people see in religion - it's above all a sense of meaning and purpose. But I digress ...




Oh God, sorry, force of habit, I dislike Jordan Peterson (maybe with more digging I would like something by him.) He's quite focused on Jungian archetypes as I recall, and he got a fame as cause célèbre, along with some other professors/ instructors. I joined Sam Harris forum (that grew out of Project Reason) for a short time explaining what I did not like about Peterson or the discussion in his podcast with him. While I used to listen to Sam Harris' podcast "religiously" (discovered him because of Hitchens, so wish he was still around, and Dawkins) but I then stopped mostly after the podcasts became subscriber content. Also some of his associations like Brett Weinstein put a bad taste in my mouth (or maybe that was the horse urine).

I really discovered Atheism through the four horsemen (Dawkins, Dennett, Hitchens and Harris) in the early 2000s. Today I strongly dislike Harris because of his dogmatic pursuit of political goals, which he mixes with atheism/rationality in a really pathetic way (pretending that it's the only rational way to think about things). 

Jordan Peterson - I don't agree with every single argument he makes, obviously. But especially in the last couple of years he has been one of the more prominent actual voices of reason in many topics (gender ideology, socialism, general injustice in political systems etc..). This is one of the best videos I would recommend to check out Peterson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJrEaLYacwc&ab_channel=JordanBPeterson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2023 at 00:40
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Right now I'm dealing with the church about my mother's funeral, and maybe that is making me a little more emotional about these things again.
Sorry for your loss, Greg.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progishness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2023 at 05:16
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Lucky thing The Beatles are in Proto-Prog as they are sometimes known as the first or an early boy band.


That really annoys me as in my book the term 'boy band' refers to a bunch of vocalist pretty boys, put together by the industry, who generally don't write their own songs nor play any instruments.

The Beatles were way more than that - they were a pop/rock band, singers and song writers, knew how to get the best out of their instruments (jokes about Ringo's drumming ignored), with an ever evolving style, and with the help of an innovative producer created a sound that has influenced just about every aspiring rock band since. Not to mention embracing psychedelia and helping to lay the foundations of what would become prog.

How many of the current or former 'boy bands' will be remembered in 50 years times for being major music influencers in 50+ years time?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2023 at 06:42
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by O666 O666 wrote:

Hi Logan . So sorry for your lost . I know what is this deep grief.

I believe no one here don't know how "Religious" minds can be dangerous for people . I trapped in Iran as a Iranian under wild brutal Islamic regime that want push a big nation to the heaven with militia organizations!!! How can I explain it clearly?! They shut down Internet and send parasite on satellite frequencies and filtered too many sites and social networks. They forced women to Hijab and....
I am not muslim but I born as a muslim and I don't choose my religion and honestly I hate all Religions because I read about most of them and I found everytime one religion reach to power , believers of that religion did and do and will do horrible and wild and brutal works against people . They kill FREEDOM easily ...
I love music specially Progressive Rock music and I living with it over 40 years with too many troubles that one Islamic religion made for me and guys like me. We are victim in 21 century ....


Thanks you so much, it means a lot. Sadly, this kind of grief is par for the course and it is in these times that many people turn to religion for comfort.

I feel so bad about Iran's situation. My best friend was Persian (born Muslim, dad was an ambassador before Khomeini) and I had lots of Persian people who were very close to me -- Vancouver has a significant Persian population.   With my friends and my parents friends, their families fled when the Ayatollah Khomeini took power. I was so sickened by the news here when women were being treated so inhumanely for not wanting to be forced to wear the hijab in Iran, that to balance the news they had other women talking about the "freedom" of wearing the hijab. And of course I am sickened about the penalties and persecution that many ex-Muslims have faced. I have heard from various Christians about the extreme intolerance of the non-believers, and of course you find those, but the most dangerous intolerance I have found is largely from the believers. We're in a strange society where many also have become very tolerant of the intolerant and if not religious think it is racist (for some reason) or phobic to be critical of certain religions. And I know someone who was born into a Jehovah's Witnesses family and having stated that she doesn't believe in it, she was shunned and pushed out by her family. And of course the apostates are in mortal danger in places.

As for this topic, as said, from my experience, it has been Neo-Prog and Prog Metal, and Avant-Prog and Zeuhl next to that. Indo-Prog/Raga Rock has got many negative comments, but mostly, sadly, it's ignored. Krautock gets negativity mostly for the name. Some hate that the classifications we use here, and that's another issue. I never thought of, say, Eclectic Prog as a genre, it's a category we use to organise things. If we used multi-tagging, I very much doubt we would have that or Crossover Prog.

Thanks so so much for your time .

About this topic : Neo Prog is not an obvious and clear in PA. A wide range of bands with completely different visions , musicality , and style labeled as Neo Prog.
I never got why Marillion post-Fish is Neo Prog when we faced with bands like IQ , Arena and ... IMO Neo Prog is one of the sub genes that must change or deform eventually ....
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