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Roger Waters - Dark Side of the Moon Redux 2023

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2023 at 18:32
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I've read arguments in other places that this version is the "older" Roger Waters version of DSOTM, paying tribute to his younger days when the album was created. 
But on his website he talks about "...also to re-address the political and emotional message of the whole album.."
...

Hi,

He did that re-addressing with The Wall ... in the tour here he had a sort of war memorial for VietNam ... the original The Wall was about WW2. The "updating was fine, although for me the story changed and all of a sudden the story of Pink was no longer important, and I felt that his taking on the War Memorial for the VietNam fallen folks was blowing bubbles some, and it felt kinda fake, certainly not in the sense that it lacked meaning, but I thought the context was kinda shaken up a bit.

On "BOFR" update.
The video of "Bravery Out of Range" is another story, in my book. "Amused to Death" was a magnificent album, which even included Jeff Beck beautifully done, and while I enjoyed it quite a bit, I did feel that some of the lyrics were topical and trying to show that he was "relevant" when it came to opinions, and of course, he got panned left and right for opening his mouth ... just shut up and play rock music! Which RW refuses to do, right?

The new version is actually nicer than the original, although I think he's in a time warp, and his using of Ronald Reagan in the video show how out of time he is, even though the music in it itself and the arrangement stands out really nice. The presentation itself, is a bit weird for me ... the 2 cute little girls doing the background vocals, are a distraction for what would be a serious song, so there is a sort of dichotomy here that seems more related to rock music and its presentation (sexy first!), than it does to the value of the wording and total meaning ... so it's sexy to be brave and out of range?

I don't think that RW realizes that the Internet has made things very confusing and that no one knows what is right or wrong, and neither does Roger for that matter, and that we're all caught in this media driven confusion, to the point that "lyrics" are junk, and meaningless. No one is even discussing the latest Ian's lyrics! The "words" have lost their touch! I think RW thought the song deserved a bit more attention than before, but using Reagan, he only dates himself, and shows that he is stuck in a time warp. No one remembers Reagan, or gives a damn! And all of a sudden his song becomes quite ... empty. I don't think he realizes that, obviously, or he would have done something else.

Either way we look at it, it's a sad shape of affairs. None of us listens, and on top of it I don't think many of us give a damn, other than posting a comment that is not anywhere near that idea, or the concept of what the song is about.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2023 at 20:24
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Either way we look at it, it's a sad shape of affairs. None of us listens, and on top of it I don't think many of us give a damn, other than posting a comment that is not anywhere near that idea, or the concept of what the song is about.

Here's an idea, speak for yourself and don't include your delusional impressions on what other people might think. State an opinion (briefly, please -- and in concise English, if at all possible) and leave out the gibbering nonsense regarding other posters.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2023 at 00:40
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I've read arguments in other places that this version is the "older" Roger Waters version of DSOTM, paying tribute to his younger days when the album was created. 
But on his website he talks about "...also to re-address the political and emotional message of the whole album.."
Maybe just me but I've never viewed the original with a political message. Roger is so infatuated with politics he may be trying to alter the meaning of the album today?? 


TBH, I've always thought of DSOTM as a "political" album, given the amount of critics on our western society contained in the lyrics (Time, Money, U&T and Brain Damage).

It may not be a Communist Manifesto, but it certainly yells at "evil capitalism" in a few places .

Just like Animals & The Wall and TFC are "political albums" as well.


.
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
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as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2023 at 15:07
Looks and sounds  like I will pass on this







Edited by Sean Trane - July 30 2023 at 15:07
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
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as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2023 at 16:36
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Looks and sounds  like I will pass on this



Bloody hell! "Us and Them" is an even worse botch job than "Money." It's damn embarrassing. This is the point where it's evident that Waters' ego overran any common sense, and he's tumbling arse over teat down a hill in a desparate attempt to pretend Gilmour and Wright never existed. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2023 at 16:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progishness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 31 2023 at 09:44
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I've read arguments in other places that this version is the "older" Roger Waters version of DSOTM, paying tribute to his younger days when the album was created. 
But on his website he talks about "...also to re-address the political and emotional message of the whole album.."
Maybe just me but I've never viewed the original with a political message. Roger is so infatuated with politics he may be trying to alter the meaning of the album today?? 


The original DSOTM (in my own opinion) was about the trials of life, death and mental illness. The only nods to politics being their cynical paean to consumerism, i.e. 'Money', and musings on the futility of conflict, i.e. 'Us and Them'.

[I could write a PhD thesis on the concepts and meaning of DSOTM, but haven't got the time just now!]


Edited by Progishness - July 31 2023 at 09:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2023 at 09:30
Pass... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2023 at 16:35
I'm all good with The Wall and Animals having a lot of political meanings and nods, but I've always taken DarkSide to be much more about mental illness and life in general. The song Money is heavily about greed and how money can make us greedy and only want material things, I don't consider that a political thing, anybody can be greedy. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frets N Worries Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2023 at 13:45
Alright, 'Time' is out...

It's not as bad as 'Money' was, but Gilmour's best solo (in my opinion) was sorely missed
Called out a tune, but I never saw the face

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2023 at 14:00
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I've read arguments in other places that this version is the "older" Roger Waters version of DSOTM, paying tribute to his younger days when the album was created. 
But on his website he talks about "...also to re-address the political and emotional message of the whole album.."
...

Hi,

He did that re-addressing with The Wall ... in the tour here he had a sort of war memorial for VietNam ... the original The Wall was about WW2. The "updating was fine, although for me the story changed and all of a sudden the story of Pink was no longer important, and I felt that his taking on the War Memorial for the VietNam fallen folks was blowing bubbles some, and it felt kinda fake, certainly not in the sense that it lacked meaning, but I thought the context was kinda shaken up a bit.

On "BOFR" update.
The video of "Bravery Out of Range" is another story, in my book. "Amused to Death" was a magnificent album, which even included Jeff Beck beautifully done, and while I enjoyed it quite a bit, I did feel that some of the lyrics were topical and trying to show that he was "relevant" when it came to opinions, and of course, he got panned left and right for opening his mouth ... just shut up and play rock music! Which RW refuses to do, right?

The new version is actually nicer than the original, although I think he's in a time warp, and his using of Ronald Reagan in the video show how out of time he is, even though the music in it itself and the arrangement stands out really nice. The presentation itself, is a bit weird for me ... the 2 cute little girls doing the background vocals, are a distraction for what would be a serious song, so there is a sort of dichotomy here that seems more related to rock music and its presentation (sexy first!), than it does to the value of the wording and total meaning ... so it's sexy to be brave and out of range?

I don't think that RW realizes that the Internet has made things very confusing and that no one knows what is right or wrong, and neither does Roger for that matter, and that we're all caught in this media driven confusion, to the point that "lyrics" are junk, and meaningless. No one is even discussing the latest Ian's lyrics! The "words" have lost their touch! I think RW thought the song deserved a bit more attention than before, but using Reagan, he only dates himself, and shows that he is stuck in a time warp. No one remembers Reagan, or gives a damn! And all of a sudden his song becomes quite ... empty. I don't think he realizes that, obviously, or he would have done something else.

Either way we look at it, it's a sad shape of affairs. None of us listens, and on top of it I don't think many of us give a damn, other than posting a comment that is not anywhere near that idea, or the concept of what the song is about.



I think it was a really good idea not to insert current politicians in what is and should remain a timeless song about corrupt leaders. If you think that Roger is unaware of the current political landscape, you haven't been paying attention. As for Lucius - sure, insult the "little girls". Way to go, old man.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 24 2023 at 14:01
Originally posted by Frets N Worries Frets N Worries wrote:

Alright, 'Time' is out...

It's not as bad as 'Money' was, but Gilmour's best solo (in my opinion) was sorely missed

It's amazing how many "best solos" Gilmour has up his sleeve ;-) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 25 2023 at 15:23

profanation
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 26 2023 at 03:47
^ The original work is not destroyed, so it is not a profanation. I would say on the contrary: the original work only gets better with this new horrible interpretation of it...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 26 2023 at 05:12
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^ The original work is not destroyed, so it is not a profanation. I would say on the contrary: the original work only gets better with this new horrible interpretation of it...

I see your point Big smile , but I'm afraid if to listen some times to this "new" work, it might be difficult to listen to the original in the same undisturbed way like before.


Edited by David_D - August 26 2023 at 05:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 26 2023 at 06:05
It's given me a greater appreciation of the original
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 26 2023 at 06:17
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^ The original work is not destroyed, so it is not a profanation. I would say on the contrary: the original work only gets better with this new horrible interpretation of it...

Hi,

Sadly, I'm not sure this makes much sense to my mind ... it's like saying that Beethoven's 5th sounds better than the eventual copies hundreds of years later ... I really think we are not being true to the changes in time and how much things change in between. 

I don't think RW's recent redo is anything, but a new interpretation of an old story, or movie ... heck, we go for Hollywood redo's all the time ... why not rock music?

I imagine that the "music timeline" is kind of forgotten and looked at as some sort of a sacred cow, and in the end, it's just another song ... and a new interpretation is fine ... why should it sound the same? I sincerely doubt that the Stravinsky originals were as good as the ones done in the 60's by Bernstein and many others ... I really find some of the comments here weird, and in many ways, it's like we do not accept the fact that time has moved on many years ... and things are not the same anymore ... but many listeners here want the "same" again ... that is soooooooo pop music oriented in my book and a lot less to be mandated as "progressive music".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 26 2023 at 21:03
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Sadly, I'm not sure this makes much sense to my mind ... it's like saying that Beethoven's 5th sounds better that the eventual copies hundreds of years later ... I really think we are not being true to the changes in time and how much things change in between.
No, what makes no sense is you referring to Beethoven's 5th completely out of context. Beethoven, even as crotchety as he was in old age, didn't rewrite the 5th into a slow, depressingly bleating Death March because he felt unloved, irrelevant, and he was not getting enough admiration for his former composition.

That is a dead-on comparison, Chachi.

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

I don't think RW's recent redo is anything, but a new interpretation of an old story, or movie ... heck, we go for Hollywood redo's all the time ... why not rock music?

Generally speaking, remakes are trash. Have been for decades in Hollywood. They are cash grabs because producers have run out of ideas. Like Waters, in this case.

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

I imagine that the "music timeline" is kind of forgotten and looked at as some sort of a sacred cow, and in the end, it's just another song ... and a new interpretation is fine ... why should it sound the same? I sincerely doubt that the Stravinsky originals were as good as the ones done in the 60's by Bernstein and many others ... I really find some of the comments here weird, and in many ways, it's like we do not accept the fact that time has moved on many years ... and things are not the same anymore ... but many listeners here want the "same" again ... that is soooooooo pop music oriented in my book and a lot less to be mandated as "progressive music".

Again, your lack of context is stultifyingly redundant and without merit. First, and most importantly to the context you utterly lack, Stravinsky didn't completely rewrite The Rite of Spring and mumble his way through the remake (renamed, I guess, The Funeral Rite of Winter). Stravinsky conducted the piece himself on numerous occasions, and didn't alter it as a bitter old man. 

Also, Bernstein knew Stravinsky on a personal level, and he was in the audience when Bernstein conducted The Rite of Spring. I think it's safe to say Bernstein didn't transmogrify the composition into something alien to the original. In fact, this excerpt from the NY Times says it all:

During the ovation, Stravinsky, who was seated at the front of the first tier, stood up, smiled and gestured his thanks to Bernstein and the orchestra musicians. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2023 at 02:00
^ wow, do you have a bone to pick with RW. Maybe you should find a way to move on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2023 at 06:29
^ Instead of picking over the bones of past endeavors, maybe Roger could find a way to "move on".
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