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siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
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    Posted: August 14 2023 at 20:21
Great idea from Brufordfreak and a sentiment we ALL share on this site.

In his poll he mentioned starting a poll of albums that are held captive by original categorization

Which albums and artists do you feel are mistagged?

Albums there are literally tons including Porcupine Tree's space rock albums.

Artists there are just as many

Just a few i can think of at the moment

Riverside should be Heavy Prog

Haken should be progressive metal

Magic Pie should be progressive metal

Fantomas is in RIO and they are about as experimental as it gets

Likewise Mr Bungle is as eclectic as it gets but are in RIO

I'm sure we ALL have something to contribute to this list hehe

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2023 at 20:54
Too many to mention, really. I guess that's a problem you'll have to endure, no matter what. Many bands are wrongly classified, Like Jethro Tull as Prog Folk, or Santana as Jazz rock. To be fair, is almost impossible not to categorize a band, song, album etc. only to find out they have other influences that are as strong as the one chosen to identify them with. What I do, and this is a personal preference, is to enjoy the music, and pay no attention to classifications, genres, influences, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2023 at 23:02
I much prefer tagging/ labelling by the album and multi-tagging albums, but given the system PA is stuck with, I would move Frank Zappa out of Avant-Prog and into Eclectic Prog. I also would put Jethro Tull in Eclectic Prog instead of having it in Prog Folk.

There's lot I think that I might move to Eclectic Prog and Crossover.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progosopher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2023 at 23:18
I regard Jade Warior as Eclectic Prog rather than Psychedelic/Space Rock. Their first album has P/SR qualities, but even then it is more eclectic with its world beat elements. And if you take their career as a whole into account, you end up with a lot of different styles. The main thing to expect with them is the unexpected. Both of which say 'eclectic' to me.

Vangelis is about as symphonic as you can get, although much of his work cannot be categorized strictly as 'rock.'

These are the two that first come to my mind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 00:32
If Prog Related wasn't strictly for rock groups, I would want to see several of the jazz giants on here, particularly Coltrane, Henderson, Hubbard, and most of the other horn players, in there. And Steely Dan/Chicago, but the rules wouldn't have to be changed for them, since they ARE rock groups.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 01:35
Sanguine Hum should be Canterbury.

The Psychedelic Ensemble should be Symphonic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 01:38
We are faced with the informatics limits on which the database was built upon. Touching the base could ruin everything. Of the little I know of informatics, the PA DB is built upon an Access software of the early 00's.
I remember M@X explaing that toying around or tinkering the software's principle could crumble the whole thing, though I suspect that experimenting on a copy of the DB out of line could be doable.

The way I understand things is that multi-genre belonging involving hyperlinks of the other genres is impossible on the artiste's page and the overall alphabetical list, but I could see extra space being added on album pages to have the descriptors (much like what RYM does). Likewise, I could see it possible (but WTF do I know?) to add a column in the DB/Genre alphabetical order containing secondary genres, but without the hyperlinks towards those secondary genres


Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Fantomas is in RIO and they are about as experimental as it gets

Likewise Mr Bungle is as eclectic as it gets but are in RIO


I'm fine with Bungle & Fantomas as Avant-prog (avant sort of means experimental), as for Tull in Prog Folk, there was a big discussion (to which I sort of agreed)  and I even started a poll whether Tull should be in a different genre : as I totally expected, the massive/overwhelming majority decided it was prog folk.

However, I simply don't get how such an Avant-Prog (or experimental) master like him does in Crossover Prog Wacko Ditto for Bjork in Xover. Shocked She defines experimental, IMHO.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 01:46
All these artists mentioned here can be discussed and possibly getting a new genre tag. Recently the band FM was re-tagged, now it's under crossover. So it can be done. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 04:29
There is a Band Move Policy on the forums here:

Perhaps the genre teams could use this thread to consider possible re-evaluations in the near future? I think all of us on the teams are primarily invested in new band suggestions and have time constraints. Nonetheless, this might be a worthwhile pursuit. Bands evolve, as does our insights into what is or is not prog.

Ideally a better database where multiple subgenres could be applied to bands would be wise, but alas, PA's owner is, for all intents and purposes, absent from the helm. Until that changes, we are stuck with what we have.


Edited by progaardvark - August 15 2023 at 04:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 04:52
I'm good with Fantomas and Bungle in Avant, it's an experimental genre.

I'm not hearing much Canterbury in Sanguine Hum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 05:08
Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

There is a Band Move Policy on the forums here:

Perhaps the genre teams could use this thread to consider possible re-evaluations in the near future? I think all of us on the teams are primarily invested in new band suggestions and have time constraints. Nonetheless, this might be a worthwhile pursuit. Bands evolve, as does our insights into what is or is not prog.

Ideally a better database where multiple subgenres could be applied to bands would be wise, but alas, PA's owner is, for all intents and purposes, absent from the helm. Until that changes, we are stuck with what we have.
 
One further point worth noting is that bands from the classic period such as Yes, Genesis, etc already had an extensive discography by the time they were included into PA's database, and therefore their subgenre was based on a balanced consideration of most if not all of their albums. By contrast, the subgenre of new artists will be based on their first album because that is naturally the only album they have. Because first albums are often different to subsequent albums, basing the subgenre on the first album will likely be somewhat of a distortion. Thus, new artists are treated fundamentally different to old artists in this regard.
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 05:24
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I much prefer tagging/ labelling by the album and multi-tagging albums, but given the system PA is stuck with, I would move Frank Zappa out of Avant-Prog and into Eclectic Prog. I also would put Jethro Tull in Eclectic Prog instead of having it in Prog Folk.

There's lot I think that I might move to Eclectic Prog and Crossover.

Agree with both of these. 

I'm not losing any sleep over any of this. To me its much more important that they are on here rather than where. But it's fun to discuss. If anyone really wants a move they can suggest it as per the process outlined. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 05:48
Great points everyone and then there's always the question of whether we should add more genre tagging. Some will say absolutely not but i think the more the better since as the music world has expanded exponentially  it's useful to become ever more specific in a tagging system.

For example, someone mentioned prog related only refers to rock. Why can't we have a secondary tag called prog related jazz which could included Coltrane, Sun Ra and others that weren't quite fusiony enough for the category but clearly ran parallel to the prog world.

There are many new tags popping up in the prog world as well that could be considered.

Brutal Prog
Pronk (Progressive Punk)
Swancore

Likewise it would be helpful if prog metal would be broken down into its metal genre constituents
Progressive Death Metal
Progressive Black Metal
Progressive Metalcore
Progressive Alternative Metal
Progressive Experimental Metal
Progressive Doom Metal
Progressive Symphonic Metal etc

As far as FANTOMAS, come on Ian! It's METAL! Avant is very much an experimental genre but we have an entire experimental metal section which is for avant-metal bands. In fact Fantomas is a mix of avant-metal, experimental rock, dark ambient, alternative metal and sludge metal. That's METAL !..! Even has drummer dude from Slayer :D

Also another perplexing feature of this site is that RPI is included. Most of these bands are really just symphonic prog (but not always like Area). Well why are many of the Spanish and Argentine symphonic bands not included as they utilized the exact same formula only sung in Spanish rather than Italian. To me that makes no sense.

Ironically many sites consider zeuhl a subgenre of avant-prog but i'm fine with it as a distinct genre here because it is so distinct.

It's not unheard of for an artist to be moved here. When i first started visiting the site i was perplexed by Cornucopia was listed as jazz-fusion and not Krautrock. I submitted the change to both the PSIKE (whatever it was called ten years ago) and JRF teams and voila it was changed unanimously!


Edited by siLLy puPPy - August 15 2023 at 05:50

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote projeKct Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 06:38
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Likewise it would be helpful if prog metal would be broken down into its metal genre constituents
Progressive Death Metal
Progressive Black Metal
Progressive Metalcore
Progressive Alternative Metal
Progressive Experimental Metal
Progressive Doom Metal
Progressive Symphonic Metal etc

I like this idea in general (on a "by album" basis), but I think it won't work on many cases on a "by artist" basis.

Take Pain of Salvation for example. Each of those prog-metal subgenres would be too specific for describing their whole discography. So in this case, I like the vagueness of the "Progressive Metal" tag.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 06:43
^ the generic progressive metal tag would still be used
bands like Death are clearly progressive death metal
bands like Deathspell Omega are clearly progressive black metal
i know this will never happen. this is a fantasy thread!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 07:01
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

... 
One further point worth noting is that bands from the classic period such as Yes, Genesis, etc already had an extensive discography by the time they were included into PA's database, and therefore their subgenre was based on a balanced consideration of most if not all of their albums. By contrast, the subgenre of new artists will be based on their first album because that is naturally the only album they have. Because first albums are often different to subsequent albums, basing the subgenre on the first album will likely be somewhat of a distortion. Thus, new artists are treated fundamentally different to old artists in this regard.
 ...

Hi,

And this has been one reason why I have mentioned several times that we need to make sure any artists has 2 albums worth of music FIRST ... before including them in PA. This means, likely, less inclusions, but in the end, it would help define/classify things a bit better, and I think that we will find if some bands are for real or not within the sphere they are being considered.

What I don't want to see, is someone create something in their bedroom, not that it can't be done, and immediately post it on PA and say it is progressive, and we listen to it and go ... yeah ... has some progressive on it ... but we do not know the artist, and what his inclinations are, and we should wait for those a bit more. 

It might mean that the other site gets more "listings", so what ... let them list all the crap out there, and bloat their database so badly, to the point of it being impossible to understand how and why are they here, other than some fan's fancy shampoo!

But, "mistagged", in my book, could also be a consideration on the folks in that group and making the decision, which as much as I know they hear a lot of things, in the end, I'm not sure that some of them understand or care for the other definitions and placements and would (possibly) just send the band away from their area because it won't fit, and 5 years later, guess where they should be? 

The question is, HOW MANY BANDS WERE MISTAGGED BECAUSE OF THEIR 1ST ALBUM? And if we have that answer, it will be much easier to make a call from then on ... but I'm not sure that database folks look forward to "changes" since most of it would affect their "engine". But that's like saying that the engine doesn't have faults that can't be fixed! Or no one wants to even try ... specially with a behemoth of data!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 07:27
Twelve rrtists who I believe are mis-tagged, or alternatively, twelve artists I was pleasantly surprised to find on Prog Archives, against expectations. Smile

After Forever (Symphonic Metal)
Black Sabbath (Heavy Metal)
Kate Bush (Art Pop)
Deep Purple (Hard Rock)
The Doors (Psychedelic Rock)
Epica (Symphonic Metal)
Jefferson Airplane (Psychedelic Rock)
Led Zeppelin (Hard Rock)
Nightwish (Symphonic Metal)
Roxy Music (Art Pop)
Talk Talk (Synth-Pop)
Vangelis (Electronica)

And that's just for starters. I could go on, so I will.....

Tori Amos (Art Pop)
Anathema (Hard Rock)
Be Bop Deluxe (Art Pop)
The Beatles (Pop/Rock) 
Blue Oyster Cult (Hard Rock)
ELO (Pop/Rock)
Jimi Hendrix (Psychedelic Rock)
Radiohead (Alternative Rock)
Rainbow (Hard Rock)
Spirit (Psychedelic Rock)
The Who (Hard Rock)
Wishbone Ash (Hard Rock)




Edited by Psychedelic Paul - August 15 2023 at 07:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 07:29
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

... 
One further point worth noting is that bands from the classic period such as Yes, Genesis, etc already had an extensive discography by the time they were included into PA's database, and therefore their subgenre was based on a balanced consideration of most if not all of their albums. By contrast, the subgenre of new artists will be based on their first album because that is naturally the only album they have. Because first albums are often different to subsequent albums, basing the subgenre on the first album will likely be somewhat of a distortion. Thus, new artists are treated fundamentally different to old artists in this regard.
 ...

Hi,

And this has been one reason why I have mentioned several times that we need to make sure any artists has 2 albums worth of music FIRST ... before including them in PA. This means, likely, less inclusions, but in the end, it would help define/classify things a bit better, and I think that we will find if some bands are for real or not within the sphere they are being considered.

What I don't want to see, is someone create something in their bedroom, not that it can't be done, and immediately post it on PA and say it is progressive, and we listen to it and go ... yeah ... has some progressive on it ... but we do not know the artist, and what his inclinations are, and we should wait for those a bit more. 

It might mean that the other site gets more "listings", so what ... let them list all the crap out there, and bloat their database so badly, to the point of it being impossible to understand how and why are they here, other than some fan's fancy shampoo!

But, "mistagged", in my book, could also be a consideration on the folks in that group and making the decision, which as much as I know they hear a lot of things, in the end, I'm not sure that some of them understand or care for the other definitions and placements and would (possibly) just send the band away from their area because it won't fit, and 5 years later, guess where they should be? 

The question is, HOW MANY BANDS WERE MISTAGGED BECAUSE OF THEIR 1ST ALBUM? And if we have that answer, it will be much easier to make a call from then on ... but I'm not sure that database folks look forward to "changes" since most of it would affect their "engine". But that's like saying that the engine doesn't have faults that can't be fixed! Or no one wants to even try ... specially with a behemoth of data!



^ so all the artists that only released one album wouldn't qualify?

You be trippin'. Bye bye one shot artists that never got around to a second coming.

Easier just to reevalute an artist if another style becomes the dominate one me thinks

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 07:42
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:


As far as FANTOMAS, come on Ian! It's METAL! Avant is very much an experimental genre but we have an entire experimental metal section which is for avant-metal bands. In fact Fantomas is a mix of avant-metal, experimental rock, dark ambient, alternative metal and sludge metal. That's METAL !..! Even has drummer dude from Slayer :D


I'd be fine with Fantomas in Experimental Metal, they are a few Avant Metal bands that seem to be in the Avant genre rather than the Experimental Metal genre. It's not a big deal to me, I think they sit fine in either. Avant tends to be one of the dumping grounds for bands that don't fit elsewhere, similar to Eclectic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 09:06
Echolyn should be either crossover or eclectic prog and not symphonic. That's all I can think of for now. 


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