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Sean Trane View Drop Down
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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

For those of you who don't trust the "mainstream media", I have two questions:
1. What is/who are the "mainstream media" according to you?
2. What are your (more or less) trusted information sources?
 


If it's not printed on paper and kept in archives, I generally don't trust it. I can maybe trust some TV channels, but not internet sites, who most likely don't keep archives. If I hear something on radio, I will have to "read" it somewhere else for me to start believing it.

1. In times of heavy war tensions, journalism tends to sleep in the extablishment's bed >> see the Cold War propaganda that all western mainstream medias relayed for decades from the 40's to the end of the 80's. It somewhat disappeared from 90 until 05.

2. I tend to trust like you, Le Monde Diplomatique (but not really the daily Le Monde), but also Le Canard Enchainé (even if I almost never read it, because too Franco-centric) and Charlie Hebdo.


Edited by Sean Trane - October 24 2023 at 13:21
let's just stay above the moral melee
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Some mainstream media outlets, but there are many more.

CNN

ABC

MSNBC

Fox News

Huffpost

The Atlantic

Guardian

 

Ironically, I viewed Fox News as the worst in BS output until about 3 years ago and things seemed to have flipped.

I still scan my iphone for news articles, which mostly consist of the list above plus others such as Bloomburg, The Hill, Washington Post, etc.

 

Rumble can be a good source with folks like Matt Taibbi and others that I can’t remember the names offhand.  There are podcasts like Dark Horse and Joe Rogan that have interesting guests.
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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

For those of you who don't trust the "mainstream media", I have two questions:
1. What is/who are the "mainstream media" according to you?
2. What are your (more or less) trusted information sources?
 

1. If it's on TV, I do not trust it.  If a pattern emerges, such that an online publication like Huffpost parrots either CNN, CNBC, or FOX...I discard it as a source. I do not trust Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not allowed by Universities or any serious publication as a source.   If you use Wikipedia on a college paper...you'll receive an F.  I don't trust any media organization owned by Google, Yahoo, or partially owned by BlackRock and Vanguard. 

Together, BlackRock and Vanguard own:

 

• Eighteen percent of Fox.

• Sixteen percent of CBS, and therefore also of Sixty Minutes.

• Thirteen percent of Comcast, which owns NBC, MSNBC, CNBC, and the Sky media group.

• Twelve percent of CNN.

• Twelve percent of Disney, which owns ABC and FiveThirtyEight.

• Between ten and fourteen percent of Gannett, which owns more than 250 Gannett daily newspapers plus USA Today.

• Ten percent of the Sinclair local television news, which controls seventy-two percent of U.S. households’ local TV.

• A large unspecified chunk of Graham Media Group, which owns Slate and Foreign Policy.


Wink



Edited by omphaloskepsis - October 25 2023 at 07:30
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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

For those of you who don't trust the "mainstream media", I have two questions:
1. What is/who are the "mainstream media" according to you?
2. What are your (more or less) trusted information sources?
 
1 - Breitbart News Network, One America News Network (OAN), FOX News (It's truly what they've become sadly)
2 - My puppy's plush love toy, Moose. It's never lied to me once.
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For those of you who don't trust the "mainstream media", I have two questions:
1. What is/who are the "mainstream media" according to you?
2. What are your (more or less) trusted information sources?
 

The razamataz is a pain in the bum
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ sure, there is a connection between ideologies and values. But when it comes to propaganda, it's more about truth. Propaganda is just a euphemism for lies and bullsh*t, often for the purpose of advancing an ideology or ulterior motive (profit).

So the question is: Can propaganda be used to advance an ideology, if it represents values you approve of? Or put more simply: Do the ends justify the means?

Your first post, beginning with "It is almost impossible to KNOW you're right about any of the big narratives of our time. ", was about the big narratives in general, and it's only that I've responded to. Wink
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^ sure, there is a connection between ideologies and values. But when it comes to propaganda, it's more about truth. Propaganda is just a euphemism for lies and bullsh*t, often for the purpose of advancing an ideology or ulterior motive (profit).

So the question is: Can propaganda be used to advance an ideology, if it represents values you approve of? Or put more simply: Do the ends justify the means?
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I would say that the big narratives are mostly about ideologies. All of them include facts, fake facts, correct assumptions and wrong assumptions, which makes it really hard to figure them out. Congratulations if you managed to do it, in which case I would wonder how you can be certain of it. I have put a lot of effort in the attempt, and I would say that I know a lot more about many of them than the typical person does, yet I am in no way certain that I have figured them out. 

Ideologies are first and foremost a matter of values. So it's much about to clarify with oneself which values one consider to be the most important, and then try to support those ideologies which best correspond to those values. And as Cindy says, it's OK to be wrong...or it's better to be wrong than not to take any stance at all.


Edited by David_D - October 23 2023 at 08:50
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I would say that the big narratives are mostly about ideologies. All of them include facts, fake facts, correct assumptions and wrong assumptions, which makes it really hard to figure them out. Congratulations if you managed to do it, in which case I would wonder how you can be certain of it. I have put a lot of effort in the attempt, and I would say that I know a lot more about many of them than the typical person does, yet I am in no way certain that I have figured them out. 


How can you be certain?  You can't be 100% certain. However, you can manage a certainty level above 90% in many instances. Dive deep into a logic/critical thinking/statistics/ scientific method education.  Dry test your skills against hundreds of examples of empirical data.  Observe where your skills falter.  Adapt/Adjust.
 
Make sure your critical thinking skills consistently agree with empirical data. For example: I'm a biologist and RN. Biologists know that bacterial and viral diseases tend to mutate into LESS virulent forms. In 2020/2021, the media scared people into thinking COVID-19 would mutate into something even worse. Immediately I remembered mounds of bacterial/viral mutation empirical data. I thought, " Are decades worth of disease mutation data false, or is the media lying?"  


  Constantly double-check your critical thinking skills.  Does your logic alert you to lies, faulty data, and inconsistent logic? Put alternative explanations through your critical thinking grinder.  Discard faulty explanations/hypotheses.  Often, more than one explanation passes through your critical thinking shredder, relatively unscathed.  Ask yourself, " Can both explanations be simultaneously true?"  Sure...happens all the time.  On the other hand, if the explanations are contradictory, you'll need more data to decipher the truth.  


As you refine your critical thinking skills, you will easily spot patterns that confused you in your younger daze.  Also, you'll realize instances when you do not have enough information to decode the propaganda.  You'll think, " I'm missing something."  Wait for it.  Usually, an obvious solution will reveal itself.  You just need to wait for a few more cards to be played.

 If you studied the scientific method and stats, you can make predictions and apply statistical tests to measure the correlations.  Empirical data suggests a correlation.  Cause and effect are more difficult to prove, but you can at least rise above the noise and confusion and carry on like a wayward son. Wink

 Don't be afraid to be wrong.  It's OK to be wrong...just don't stay wrong.  Treasure times when you're wrong.  These are the most valuable.  Why? Because you just improved your critical thinking skills by discarding faulty data for more reliable data.  



Edited by omphaloskepsis - October 22 2023 at 09:35
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I would say that the big narratives are mostly about ideologies. All of them include facts, fake facts, correct assumptions and wrong assumptions, which makes it really hard to figure them out. Congratulations if you managed to do it, in which case I would wonder how you can be certain of it. I have put a lot of effort in the attempt, and I would say that I know a lot more about many of them than the typical person does, yet I am in no way certain that I have figured them out. 

A world without ideologies would be a world of populism, selfishness and a lot of other bad things - which doesn't mean all ideologies are good.


Edited by David_D - October 22 2023 at 12:51
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Originally posted by bardberic bardberic wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Ah the propaganda thread, it may not have been the op's intention, but to PA's resident keyboard warriors, its an open invitation to assert their propaganda ... and off we go.
OP's intention was to remind everyone here to use nuance and apply media literacy when reading about current events or history and not to fall for sensationalist headlines completely built around deliberate lies manifesting as propaganda. OP wants people here not be f**king idiots, like the major media companies, and spread disinformation that leads to the burning down of a historic synagogue in Tunsia because people are angry at an event that did not happen and were falsely reported without being fact checked.

OP is simultaneously outraged and disappointed and believes the parties responsible for their lack of journalistic integrity need to either need to take accountability or to be held liable for their careless and dangerous recklessness.

OP has lost all faith in the media, and doesn't trust anything he reads online anymore.

This is the problem: If you dig just a little bit into the mainstream media news, you find lots of contradictions. I agree that none of it is trustworthy anymore, but if that is so, how can you even approach media "literacy"? 

Of course I know which event you are refering to, and I agree - but there are probably deeper layers of understanding that are more difficult to fathom and also more problematic in terms of ideology than just the direct debunking of the mainstream message covering it.
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^ I would say that the big narratives are mostly about ideologies. All of them include facts, fake facts, correct assumptions and wrong assumptions, which makes it really hard to figure them out. Congratulations if you managed to do it, in which case I would wonder how you can be certain of it. I have put a lot of effort in the attempt, and I would say that I know a lot more about many of them than the typical person does, yet I am in no way certain that I have figured them out. 
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Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

It is almost impossible to KNOW you're right about any of the big narratives of our time. For each of them there are a number of "counter-narratives", and for each of the competing narratives there are many sources to quote, many debunkings, many confirmations, each of which have their own sets of confirmations or debunkings. A bottomless rabbit hole ...

The big narratives are not only about facts but also about ideologies, and thus deeply sticking and complicated - which doesn't mean, they're impossible to deal with, it just needs quite a bit of effort.


Edited by David_D - October 21 2023 at 07:05
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Shake yer booty to the REAL Propaganda in the house!


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Oh! I was hoping this might be a discussion/appreciation thread for the underappreciated 1980s international pop group that worked with Trevor Horn and others. Oh well.
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^ But if the perceptions are in variance, that just shows the perceptions of those individuals are at least sincere and correct to the best of that reporter's knowledge, not part of one or more scripts schemes or conspiracies, but which will certainly be incomplete and inadequate.   But that's just reality.





Edited by Atavachron - October 20 2023 at 17:16
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Yeah I got his point.  This is why text discussions can be challenging.

Real journalism in mainstream media?   That's easy, but I'm not really looking to debate who may or may not be real journalists in your eyes.   I think of Rachel Maddow (who just released Prequel about the history of Fascism in the US), I think of the reporters in Ukraine & the Middle east, I think of the hard-working people who produce Democracy Now.   

Ok, I'll bite - about Rachel Maddow: https://www.racket.news/p/rachel-maddows-shocking-new-low

Please spare me the accusation of being pro-Trump (which I'm not) - this is about propaganda, and the whole Russiagate thing was, we know by now, pure propaganda. 

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

But again, what I take issue with is the assumption, in fact the complete belief, that other individuals ~ serious people, as serious as anyone else who takes things seriously, who know a hell of a lot more about what's going on in the world than you or I do---   y'know, who have been there ~ are not only fooling themselves but intentionally misleading everyone else.   It doesn't ring true and smacks of the current wave of "don't believe anything you see or hear or smell or read or taste or feel or perceive."

What you take issue with is something that is evidently true: If you look at the complete landscape of journalism you'll find people who have been working in the field, often literally (reporting from the battlefield), are well respected and quoted by major platforms, and yet arrive at polar opposite positions from one another. That MUST mean that some (or - unlikely - all) of them are either fooling themselves or intentionally misleading people. It doesn't matter what they say in particular, or which topic we look at - if they arrive at mutually exclusive positions, then they can't all be right.

The unfortunate truth is that we humans are easy to fool. Those pescy emotions and biases ...
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^ So that's one for you.   There must be others... besides I don't think many people would want to tell Taibbi he's a misinforming phony to his face.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Yeah I got his point.  This is why text discussions can be challenging.

Real journalism in mainstream media?   That's easy, but I'm not really looking to debate who may or may not be real journalists in your eyes.   I think of Rachel Maddow (who just released Prequel about the history of Fascism in the US), I think of the reporters in Ukraine & the Middle east, I think of the hard-working people who produce Democracy Now.   

But again, what I take issue with is the assumption, in fact the complete belief, that other individuals ~ serious people, as serious as anyone else who takes things seriously, who know a hell of a lot more about what's going on in the world than you or I do---   y'know, who have been there ~ are not only fooling themselves but intentionally misleading everyone else.   It doesn't ring true and smacks of the current wave of "don't believe anything you see or hear or smell or read or taste or feel or perceive."


Rachel Maddow, really?  I have to admit i hardly ever listen to her but what i did hear, especially during the pandemic, she was a total idiot.  Why wasn't she censored for all her misinformation?

I would consider Matt Taibbi to be of professional quality.
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