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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 20575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2024 at 16:54
Originally posted by Hugh Manatee Hugh Manatee wrote:

The problem with conspiracy theorists IMHO is that they think that it is possible to know everything.

This of course is empirically impossible.


A conspiracy theorist is someone who believes that certain events might be the result of ... conspiracies. How does that require to "know everything"? 
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Points: 1556 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2024 at 19:39
Well you see now we come up against conspiracy theories versus actual conspiracies.

Humans are pattern seekers and storytellers. Add imagination and anything becomes possible.
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Points: 20575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2024 at 05:25
^ What’s the difference? What would be typical examples?
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Points: 5977 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2024 at 05:39
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ What’s the difference? What would be typical examples?


The CIA infiltrating mainstream media was a conspiracy theory that was/is proven to be true. In 1975, Church Committee Congressional investigations revealed CIA connections with journalists and civic groups. Today the media does not even hide it. The mainstream media companies regularly hire "ex" CIA operatives. 

The accusation that the Apollo moon landings were faked continues to be a conspiracy theory that has not been proven. 

Hugh Manatee's argument is not an argument.  Humans are indeed storytellers and they recognize patterns.  But that's not an argument.  Suppose we are discussing the chemical reaction of iron-oxidizing. I could state the fact that a molecule of iron has more atoms than a molecule of oxygen.  I haven't added anything of value to the discussion of iron-oxidizing.Wink 






Edited by omphaloskepsis - March 31 2024 at 06:06
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Points: 12736 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2024 at 08:33
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

The accusation that the Apollo moon landings were faked continues to be a conspiracy theory that has not been proven.

Many imbeciles still think the world is flat, and yet they still have not fallen off the side. Which, of course, would be my preferred method for their demise. As far as the moon-landing conspiracy, it is appropriate that the term "lunacy" refers to a state of insanity. 
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Points: 20521 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2024 at 12:18
The incredible thing about conspiracy theorists is that they will hold fast to one plausible argument for their theory while ignoring 99 plausible counter arguments, which are generally referred to as a the truth.
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Points: 20575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2024 at 15:12
^ So conspiracy theorists are always wrong?
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Points: 64460 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2024 at 16:23
^ No, conspiracy theorists are attracted to the plausibility of a conspiracy.   Nothing wrong with that any more than being attracted to the non-conspiracy narrative.   What's important is knowing what things are conspiracy and what aren't.   No easy task.
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Points: 2680 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2024 at 18:16
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

The accusation that the Apollo moon landings were faked continues to be a conspiracy theory that has not been proven.

Many imbeciles still think the world is flat, and yet they still have not fallen off the side. Which, of course, would be my preferred method for their demise. As far as the moon-landing conspiracy, it is appropriate that the term "lunacy" refers to a state of insanity. 


I can't believe it's THAT many; it's probably just amplified. Many who say they do might not believe it in actuality. I also think some say it just to get attention. The problem are their followers. Unfortunately, more people should just re-state the atrocities their own governments admit to.
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Points: 1556 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2024 at 19:29
"Conspiracy theories are ultimately not about conspiracies; they are about our fear of chaos. Their focus often overlaps with actual conspiracies; but their function is not about understanding the mechanisms of actual conspiracies, but instead working as explanatory narratives for the unpredictable nature of modern life.

...

If we can convince ourselves that the problem is an external organization conspiring to frustrate democracy, we can convince ourselves that the system itself isn't broken."

UNDER THE EYE OF POWER: How fear of secret societies shapes American democracy.
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Hugh Manatee View Drop Down
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Points: 1556 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 01 2024 at 19:48
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ What’s the difference? What would be typical examples?

It could be posited that people in general believed that their government was working in their interests in a somewhat transparent fashion, however since the revelations of MKUltra, the Iran/ Contra affair and other covert government operations, trust has been diminished to the extent that all bets are off.

Now people create their own narratives, supported and enabled by others through social media, creating an echo chamber that allows no opposing point of view to penetrate. This has a built-in defence mechanism whereby anyone who expresses an opposing view is perceived as part of the cover up.

The real fight is not about good vs. evil, rather it is a fight between information and disinformation, and just as good and evil can blur into each other, so to can information and disinformation until it becomes very difficult to ascertain the difference.

This for me is the smokescreen that has been created which allows all kinds of things to proliferate on the boundaries of truth.
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Points: 20575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2024 at 02:41
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ No, conspiracy theorists are attracted to the plausibility of a conspiracy.   Nothing wrong with that any more than being attracted to the non-conspiracy narrative.   What's important is knowing what things are conspiracy and what aren't.   No easy task.


So conspiracy theorists are sometimes right, and sometimes wrong? That was kind of my point, since it was suggested that they're never right.
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Points: 4597 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2024 at 04:10
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

So conspiracy theorists are sometimes right, and sometimes wrong? That was kind of my point, since it was suggested that they're never right.
 
But anyone can create a conspiracy theory, and indeed a few years ago, Peter McIndoe created a satirical conspiracy theory "on a whim" called "Birds Aren't Real", which posits that birds are actually drones operated by the United States government to spy on American citizens.
 
Thus, although a conspiracy theory is not necessarily false, the vast majority probably are and usually too ridiculous to seriously entertain.
 
No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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Points: 5977 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2024 at 04:59
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ No, conspiracy theorists are attracted to the plausibility of a conspiracy.   Nothing wrong with that any more than being attracted to the non-conspiracy narrative.   What's important is knowing what things are conspiracy and what aren't.   No easy task.


So conspiracy theorists are sometimes right, and sometimes wrong? That was kind of my point, since it was suggested that they're never right.

^

 Exactly. Some conspiracy theories become conspiracy facts. Some conspiracy theories are wrong.

 The term "conspiracy theory" causes some folks' eyes to glaze over as they automatically disregard the theory.  That's the power of the term itself.  
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Points: 20521 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2024 at 05:58
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ So conspiracy theorists are always wrong?
In that particular scenario, 1 plausible argument for and 99 against, what do you think? That is the pertinent question.

Edited by SteveG - April 02 2024 at 06:01
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Points: 16266 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2024 at 06:47
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ No, conspiracy theorists are attracted to the plausibility of a conspiracy.  
...

Hi,

... regardless of the fact that it could be wrong ... but for those folks it's right and the rest is wrong!

It gets kinda ridiculous and American politics is turning into this kind of game, and it won't stop ...  instead of worrying about the guy being right or wrong, he could be voted down .,... instead you get folks complaining about ... anything ... and on top of it, not voting! Recent poll here in the State of Wa, less than 40% of folks went to the polls ... thus the thought and idea of how the state and its folks really look like, is impossible to determine ... and the cynicism continues with more complaints!Confused   ... and folks intentionally finding arguments that ... are worse than them crying for the chocolate kiss they didn't get!


Edited by moshkito - April 02 2024 at 06:49
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Points: 2495 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2024 at 07:30
The End Thats All You Get GIF
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 20575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2024 at 08:02
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ So conspiracy theorists are always wrong?
In that particular scenario, 1 plausible argument for and 99 against, what do you think? That is the pertinent question.

In your scenario I would also assume the conspiracy theory is wrong. But the actual "pertinent question" is what the pros and cons look like for each individual conspiracy theory. 
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Points: 20575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2024 at 08:08
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

Exactly. Some conspiracy theories become conspiracy facts. Some conspiracy theories are wrong.

Yes - if a particular conspiracy theory makes specific predictions that can be verified now or in the future, they can (then) be categorised as true or false. But often they are worded in a very generic way that makes them impossible to verify. There's also conspiracy theories about past events ... those are impossible to verify (or falsify) in a scientific sense. For example, the theory that the moon landings were fake is most likely false, but there is no experiment that we can perform now or in the future which will help us decide, there is only historic data.
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Points: 20521 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2024 at 10:08
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ So conspiracy theorists are always wrong?
In that particular scenario, 1 plausible argument for and 99 against, what do you think? That is the pertinent question.

In your scenario I would also assume the conspiracy theory is wrong. But the actual "pertinent question" is what the pros and cons look like for each individual conspiracy theory. 
Unfortunately with conspiracy theorists, my scenario is usually par for the course. When this is the case with newly acquired information, in psychological terms, it is called confirmation bias which roughly means that we assimilate and pay attention only to the facts that strengthen an opinion or idea that we already hold to be fact while ignoring the counter arguments that disprove the opinion or idea. Which in most cases are greater in number and are often more compelling.

Edited by SteveG - April 02 2024 at 10:17
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