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OT Räihälä 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 09 2005
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 514
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 Topic: Reviews and ratings - does it make sense?
Posted: November 17 2005 at 11:08 |
I find the average ratings in the reviews quite useless, because a lot of reviewers seem to give five stars to sundry records very easily. I haven't written that many reviews myself, but I would save five stars to absolute gems only, to albums that I'm definitely sure I could have with me on a desert island, and never get tired with them (there are not many of them!).
It means that even if I think that my favourite band (Gentle Giant) is way above anything else, I can't give five stars to every GG album, because I think that i.e. Acquiring The Taste is far better than Gentle Giant.
Now that I mentioned Gentle Giant and ratings, it is interesting to see that their most-liked album Octopus just makes top twenty, yet a lot of people seem to think GG are really, really good. Does this mean that people who like that kind of extreme music are more critical even within GG's own output?
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: November 17 2005 at 11:20 |
The ratings discussion comes around almost every week, and the consensus is always the same...
Reviews are nothing more than expressions of personal taste. What you may consider a 'sundry' record maybe someone elses idea of a masterpiece. It's true that some reviews are simply ludicrous and completely un-informative, whether a 5 star or 1 star rating has been given. But, as far as I'm concerned folk can award whatever they like if their review explains their reasoning behind the score they have given.
I cant comment on GG, as the little I've heard doesn't do much for me personally.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist
Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12801
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Posted: November 17 2005 at 11:25 |
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We have been this way time after time, but the question stands more debated. I've argued that any reasonable person really can't have more than 10 or so 5 star albums (at least from the guidance given here - however, it is easier to give an album 5 stars according to Amazon's criteria). Therefore when a prolific reviewer give 5 stars in PA album after album, my reaction is that the person is too easily pleased so not particulary discerning and/or young enough not to have had a broad exposure to the breadth and depth of music out there. Every favourite group with large enough discographies, will make inferior albums.
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chopper
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
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Points: 19957
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Posted: November 17 2005 at 11:31 |
I agree, some people give out 5 stars too easily. How often do you see someone give 5 stars to an album by band X and then say "it's not as good as some of their other albums"?
As for GG, they have a total of 7 albums in the PA top 100, a total only beaten by Genesis. If you refer to my recent chart, you will see they are at number 4. This presumably means GG fans are fairly divided on what they think GG's best album is.
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OT Räihälä
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 09 2005
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 514
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Posted: November 17 2005 at 11:33 |
 Blacksword wrote:
I cant comment on GG, as the little I've heard doesn't do much for me personally. |
I mentioned GG as an example only. And yes, I know it is a topic that comes up every now and then, but the mind wanders after a tough working day...
What is interesting is that at least for me it would be thousand times easier to give an album one star than five star rating. It is easier to be sure of that I hate this or that kind of music, but how to be sure that this or that album is really the best you know? (I haven't given just one star to any album yet.)
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Phil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 17 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1881
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Posted: November 17 2005 at 11:37 |
OT Räihälä wrote:
I find the average ratings in the reviews quite
useless, because a lot of reviewers seem to give five stars to
sundry records very easily. I haven't written that many reviews
myself, but I would save five stars to absolute gems only, to
albums that I'm definitely sure I could have with me on a desert
island, and never get tired with them (there are not many of them!). |
I agree. I think either you find a reviewer whose recommendations you
have previously agreed with and you then take their comments as
informed opinion, or else you look at the overall rating of a
particular album, to give an indication of whether it's worth buying. I
think the ratings & reviews are most useful when you have decided
you want to try a particular artist, but aren't sure which album to
start with - though again, you could just ask for advice in the
"Recommendations" section.
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Marc Baum
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 30 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 259
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Posted: November 17 2005 at 11:51 |
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The discussions went too far and seem quite useless I say. The most people who give ratings or reviews on this site, quite decide a star rating from out of their emotional side, far less from out of a objecitve point of view. If no one would have favourite artists and favourite albums, no one would ever give 5 stars on this site. I mean, a rating is a free formular you give to a release and any one should be able to give a 1, 3, 5 - completely free from the own view - That's what truely is it all about on this site, even people want you to think otherwise.
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"All you need to do is sit back, and acquire the taste." - GENTLE GIANT
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yargh
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 04 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 421
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Posted: November 17 2005 at 11:51 |
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The ratings are mostly useless because there are only 5 stars available. A minimum of 10 stars would be needed to sort out some of the problems with the rating system. At the very least, you'd get a lot more people giving out 9s in the case of an album that they think is great, but not on the level of another album or two by the same band.
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Marc Baum
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 30 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 259
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Posted: November 17 2005 at 12:03 |
For any one out there are different albums gems, some are for more people such. Just look on the PA top 50 list. So what about the discuss?
If it makes sense is really obvious.
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"All you need to do is sit back, and acquire the taste." - GENTLE GIANT
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 20576
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Posted: November 17 2005 at 12:04 |
OT Räihälä wrote:
I find the average ratings in the reviews quite useless, because a lot of reviewers seem to give five stars to sundry records very easily. I haven't written that many reviews myself, but I would save five stars to absolute gems only, to albums that I'm definitely sure I could have with me on a desert island, and never get tired with them (there are not many of them!).
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I am a bit more lenient ... I don't rate all my favorite albums 5 stars, but many of them. I guess that I would rate about 10% of my albums 5 stars. If there were half stars the situation would be different ... but 4 stars would simply be cruel for albums which are really outstanding and are just a tiny bit less perfect than the 10 best albums of all times ...
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Marc Baum
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 30 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 259
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Posted: November 17 2005 at 12:10 |
yargh wrote:
The ratings are mostly useless because there are only 5 stars available. A minimum of 10 stars would be needed to sort out some of the problems with the rating system. At the very least, you'd get a lot more people giving out 9s in the case of an album that they think is great, but not on the level of another album or two by the same band. |
This idea comes very often. For that, the admins would delete all reviews, and all must them write new. For that I have my good ol' point-system 'til 10 points.
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"All you need to do is sit back, and acquire the taste." - GENTLE GIANT
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Marc Baum
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 30 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 259
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Posted: November 17 2005 at 12:17 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
OT Räihälä wrote:
I find the average ratings in the reviews quite useless, because a lot of reviewers seem to give five stars to sundry records very easily. I haven't written that many reviews myself, but I would save five stars to absolute gems only, to albums that I'm definitely sure I could have with me on a desert island, and never get tired with them (there are not many of them!).
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I am a bit more lenient ... I don't rate all my favorite albums 5 stars, but many of them. I guess that I would rate about 10% of my albums 5 stars. If there were half stars the situation would be different ... but 4 stars would simply be cruel for albums which are really outstanding and are just a tiny bit less perfect than the 10 best albums of all times ...
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Also makes not much sense. For what you think are the best 10 albums of all time, would someone else rate with only 3 stars possibly. We can discuss that 'til we die, but one is sure. Rate, how you think it's right. But Mike, I also feel the same with the half star. I would be open for this option.
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"All you need to do is sit back, and acquire the taste." - GENTLE GIANT
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geezer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2005
Location: Cocos (Keeling) Islands
Status: Offline
Points: 606
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Posted: November 17 2005 at 12:29 |
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Those who have knowledge are also much more critical.
Not many seem to have.
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Vanwarp
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 70
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Posted: November 17 2005 at 12:31 |
OT Räihälä wrote:
I find the average ratings in the reviews quite useless, because a lot of reviewers seem to give five stars to sundry records very easily. I haven't written that many reviews myself, but I would save five stars to absolute gems only, to albums that I'm definitely sure I could have with me on a desert island, and never get tired with them (there are not many of them!).
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Does it all make sense? Yes and No. Yes if you don't take the ratings game too seriously. The rating system is not perfect, matter of factly I don't know of any perfect rating system, no matter what you do, you'll always find some raters abusing whatever rating system you have in place.
Just as you'll have those who give out 5 star ratings like it's a given for just about every album they own, you'll find just as many others giving out 1 star ratings to those albums they don't like, even if the majority of the reviews are glowing.
I've written reviews of albums that are really good but rated them 3 stars on Prog Archives because the album is simply not essential to anybody's prog collection. From a progressive standpoint, many really good albums don't score very well while if you find the same album on another music site which caters more to that particular genre or style of music, it might very well be at the top of the list. In the end, it all depends on what you're looking for?
I usually don't pay much attention to lists or to highly rated albums with empty "ratings" with no supporting comments, preferring to look and read the reviews for a particular album I might be interested in. If I find that the majority of the written reviews are favorable, and the music they describe interests me, then usually the album is a solid bet. I've yet to find an album where - after having read all the reviews - I was dissapointed with my purchase.
So, it does make sense, you just have to sort everything out - on this site anyway - from a progressive point of view.
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"Only sick music makes money today." Friedrich Nietzsche, German philosopher (1844 - 1900)
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yargh
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 04 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 421
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Posted: November 17 2005 at 12:44 |
Marc Baum wrote:
yargh wrote:
The ratings are mostly useless because there are only 5 stars available. A minimum of 10 stars would be needed to sort out some of the problems with the rating system. At the very least, you'd get a lot more people giving out 9s in the case of an album that they think is great, but not on the level of another album or two by the same band. |
This idea comes very often. For that, the admins would delete all reviews, and all must them write new. For that I have my good ol' point-system 'til 10 points.
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Why would any reviews need to be deleted? The text of the old reviews could be kept and each reviewer's rating of an album on the 5-point scale could be automatically converted to the 10-point scale. Just give the reviewer the option of re-rating whatever albums he has already done.
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Flip_Stone
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 388
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Posted: November 17 2005 at 12:56 |
Yeah, I agree (well at least with the ratings). So many people rate the albums on their own personal view, rather than giving it an fair and objective rating. You might like something a lot, but does it make any sense to not think about how worthy it is to a large segment of people? In other words, if the reviews are to serve as a helping tool for people interested in bands, and trying to find or start off with the "best albums" does it make sense to rate everything with a vote of 5 stars?
Most people give ratings of 5 stars when they should really be using 4 stars. 5 stars should only be used for those rare masterpieces (maybe only 20 or so in existence). 4 stars still means a lot, and shows that you think the album is very good and good for others.
The reviews are much more helpful because they force a person to explain why the rate the albums the way they do.
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Legoman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 21 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 306
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Posted: November 17 2005 at 13:03 |
Some of the problems with what you percieve to be a plethora of 5 star
albums is that usually a person isn't going to go out of his way just
to write a review of a mediocure album. Chances are they would
much rather write a review of a album that effected them in some way,
made them think or is just flat out too awesome for them to hold the
tears back. Again, it is still and opinon and even though most
wouldn't see Talk Talk by Laughing Stock as a 5 star album, you don't
really know what their mood was at that particular point in time
(something that probably should be addressed in the review) to see what
they see.
However, you are mainly right. The reviews are generally not THAT
useful and a 5 star album should still only be given out to albums that
ARE essential to any progressive collection. But that is why one
should turn to the top 100 to get a better idea of what a Prog
Collection should look like. 
And about Gentle Giant. I understand where you are coming from
when you say that they are better than just number 18 for their first
top 100 album. Personally I don't even see Octopus as being their
best album, either. I love Free Hand and Three Friends
much more but just remember... you got into Genesis and Yes probably
very easily where-as with Gentle Giant one needs to toy around a little
more with in order to truely start Aquiring the Taste. 
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Atkingani
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: October 21 2005
Location: Terra Brasilis
Status: Offline
Points: 12288
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Posted: November 17 2005 at 13:08 |
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Maybe the 5-star is given more often by comparison not with other prog-albums but with non-prog albums. Maybe it is unconscious.
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Guigo
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Jimbo
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 28 2005
Location: Helsinki
Status: Offline
Points: 2818
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Posted: November 17 2005 at 13:17 |
Flip_Stone wrote:
Yeah, I agree (well at least with the ratings). So many people
rate the albums on their own personal view, rather than giving it an
fair and objective rating. |
Music is subjective. It's not possible to say objectively that album
"A" is better than album "B", because simply there are no ways to
measure how good an album is. You can only speak for yourself. How on
earth am I supposed to rate an album if I can't use my personal
judgement? Are we all supposed to give (For example) Close To The Edge
a five-star rating, just because most people think it's a masterpiece?
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greenback
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 14 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3300
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Posted: November 17 2005 at 13:21 |
i'm very careful with reviews.
i do not take seriously a reviewer rating three friends 2 stars, then octopus 5 stars, then power & glory 1 star, then free hand 3 stars, then acquiring the taste 5 stars, then glass house 2 stars...
if you look at the average rating for each of these albums, then you notice they are all above 4 stars! So, a reliable reviewer (like me) would rate ALL of them 4-5 stars, unless he REALLY does not like the band's style. if you really like their stuff, then you will rate them near 5 stars for most of their albums, because GG is a band of renown.
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Reviews and ratings - does it make sense?
