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Joren View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: 10cc
    Posted: March 09 2004 at 05:13

There have been some discussions about 10cc in other topics , so I thought I could raise a new topic. The question (of course): Is 10cc progressive rock?

I don't know, really. I'm playing (and enjoying) 'How Dare You!' at the moment  and I think that could be called prog, but if you think of songs like 'Rubber Bullets', 'Donna' and 'Dreadlock Holiday'... I'm not sure. What do you say?

10cc: prog or not?



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2004 at 21:55

Joren:

Thank you for raising this topic.  As you know, I am probably the biggest proponent of 10CC.  From a purely practical standpoint, I have posited that, if Supertramp belongs on the site (which, of course, they may not), then so does 10CC, since they were contemporaneous, and both admittedly influenced by each other (and both of them influenced by The Beatles, of course).

However, my larger "argument" is that there is a subgenre of "prog" that is missing.  I do not consider Supertramp or Klaatu "art-rock" (the subgenre under which they currently appear).  Or, if they are, so is 10CC (and XTC, and a few others).  Here again, it is a matter of practicality: Klaatu admits The Beatles, 10CC and Supertramp as its three biggest influences - in that order.  So how can this site see fit to include Klaatu and Supertramp, but not 10CC?

I have suggested a new subgenre called "pop-prog," under which I would put the following: Supertramp, 10CC, Klaatu, XTC, Queen (since a great deal of their oeuvre is quasi-progressive), and others.  Or else put all of them under "art-rock," if that's the category that the administrators feel that Supertramp and Klaatu belong in.

It simply seems to me amazingly "limited" to have Supertramp and Klaatu on the site, but not 10CC, XTC, and other bands whose music may not be "prog" the way, say, "symphonic prog" is prog, but whose music is definitely "far left" of "commercial pop," and is definitely "progressive" in its own way.

Indeed, I would argue that, in some ways, 10CC and XTC are as "progressive" in their own way as, say, Jethro Tull, is in its way: i.e, JT's early period (through Minstrel or so) was certainly prog, but they then went largely "pop" (or at least "commercial") after that.  10CC and XTC have been "progressive" in their ways far more consistently, over just as many albums.

Finally, you state that "How Dare You" certainly seems "progressive" in a way, while the band's first eponymous LP does not.  I disagree.  Their first LP is a brilliant parody of 50s/60s music: to my mind, not only is the music "progressive" in many ways, but it takes a certain "progressive mindset" to parody something so well.  Yet even if we "disclaim" the first album, by the time they put out Sheet Music, they were flat-out "progressive," especially compared to almost every other "pop-rock" band of the time.

Indeed, even if we stick to the "definition" provided by the administrators of the site, 10CC and XTC (at the very least) both use almost every element, including textured keyboards, non-standard arrangements and instrumentation, non-standard time signatures (though admittedly not so often as others), and, without question, "literary" references.  Indeed, 10CC, XTC and Gentle Giant probably use more "literary references" than any other three prog bands in any subgenre.

So is 10CC prog?  Not by the definition of prog that includes Genesis.  But by a definition that sets "progressive" rock apart from "standard" or "commercial" pop-rock, an unequivocal "yes."

Peace.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2004 at 03:50

You know what? I think you're right!  I've always had the feeling that the music from 10cc was 'special' and different from mainstream pop/rock music. I hope Max will read this. Maybe he will consider adding 10cc and XTC to the website (although he is very busy ).

And keep discussing, my fellow proggers!



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2004 at 05:29

Are there no people here (except for maani and myself) who like 10cc??

You can also say why you don't like them...

Come on, children, don't be shy

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2004 at 12:49

I have never heard any of their albums, never considered them as progressive. However, I have heard artists like Supertramp, alan parsons project and ELO and they might fit well under maani's suggestion of pop-prog. I have heard pop-prog (or prog-pop...) used as a genre other places. TalkTalk, as discussed in another topic was placed as pop-prog.....

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2004 at 13:08

I feel kinda sad..

I have SO much to cach up to.. still haven't got any album of gentle giant, only 1 of yes, 2 of camel (mirage and snowgoose, LP 1st pressure and CD with bonus tracks, my cds are going away cause of the lp's) and go on like that..
BUT.. I'm getting crimson's in the court of.. WEE!


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2004 at 13:24
Originally posted by Radioactive Toy Radioactive Toy wrote:

I feel kinda sad..

I have SO much to cach up to.. still haven't got any album of gentle giant, only 1 of yes, 2 of camel (mirage and snowgoose, LP 1st pressure and CD with bonus tracks, my cds are going away cause of the lp's) and go on like that..
BUT.. I'm getting crimson's in the court of.. WEE!

Don't be sad! You have so much to look forward to!!  Just be patient...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2004 at 02:00

Radioactive Toy:

As much as I love 10CC, don't bother with them right now.  Stay with the "seminal" bands first: King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Genesis, Gentle Giant, Yes, Moody Blues, ELP, Jethro Tull, Van Der Graaf Generator, et al.  Those are the "roots" of prog, so they should be your "foundation."

Hammar:

Supertramp and 10CC were contemporaries, and were (admittedly) influenced by each other.  Klaatu was admittedly influenced by both of them (as well as by ELO).  Thus, it seems strange to have Klaatu and Supertramp on the site, and not 10CC.  This is why the idea of a "pop-prog" category seemed to "natural" to me.  If not, then 10CC (and XTC) belong in "art-rock" as much as Supertramp does.

Peace.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2004 at 03:48
Originally posted by maani maani wrote:

Radioactive Toy:

As much as I love 10CC, don't bother with them right now.  Stay with the "seminal" bands first: King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Genesis, Gentle Giant, Yes, Moody Blues, ELP, Jethro Tull, Van Der Graaf Generator, et al.  Those are the "roots" of prog, so they should be your "foundation."

Hammar:

Supertramp and 10CC were contemporaries, and were (admittedly) influenced by each other.  Klaatu was admittedly influenced by both of them (as well as by ELO).  Thus, it seems strange to have Klaatu and Supertramp on the site, and not 10CC.  This is why the idea of a "pop-prog" category seemed to "natural" to me.  If not, then 10CC (and XTC) belong in "art-rock" as much as Supertramp does.

Peace.

tnx maani AND hammar

Already got some:
King Crimson (in the court of, LP), Pink Floyd (echoes 2cd, meddle LP, final cut LP, the wall 2LP, atom heart mother CD) , Genesis (foxtrot cd), Yes (close to the edge CD) 

Don't got any of:
Moody Blues, Gentle Giant,  ELP, Jethro Tull, Van Der Graaf Generator

tell me their essentional albums, there is much caching up to do..


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2004 at 04:02
Originally posted by Radioactive Toy Radioactive Toy wrote:


Don't got any of:Moody Blues, Gentle Giant,  ELP, Jethro Tull, Van Der Graaf Generatortell me their essentional albums, there is much caching up to do..



So far, I have nothing by the Moody Blues or Gentle Giant, but as far as the others you mention are concerned:

ELP - Definitely go for 'Trilogy' 'Tarkus' and 'Brain Salad Surgery' - in fact, go for BSS first.

Jethro Tull - try to get 'Aqualung' first, followed by 'Passion Play', 'Thick As A Brick' & 'Heavy Horses'

Van De Graaf Generator - I only have one of their albums (so far), but it seems to be critically acknowledged as the place to start - 'Pawn Hearts'

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2004 at 05:38

Jim!

It's no crime not owning any Moody Blues (fine music, but ELP, Crimson and the rest eat them for breakfast...) but MAN, we gotta get you some Gentle GiantKerry Minnear (the keys man and composer) is a genius.

The Power and the Glory can be downright frightening at times... if you love ELP's "Toccata" as much as I do, I promise you you'll love it .  (at least--after like 10 listens...)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2004 at 07:12
Corbet

As a total GG beginner, what do you recommend?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2004 at 07:50
Originally posted by Radioactive Toy Radioactive Toy wrote:

tnx maani AND hammar

Already got some:
King Crimson (in the court of, LP), Pink Floyd (echoes 2cd, meddle LP, final cut LP, the wall 2LP, atom heart mother CD) , Genesis (foxtrot cd), Yes (close to the edge CD) 

Don't got any of:
Moody Blues, Gentle Giant,  ELP, Jethro Tull, Van Der Graaf Generator

tell me their essentional albums, there is much caching up to do..

Je moet natuurlijk niet bij de pakken neer gaan zitten, je hebt nog veel te doen! Maak je niet druk, ik heb ook nog maar 30 progalbums ofzo (van 400 CD's)

Maar van Jethro Tull (een van mijn favorieten momenteel) MOET je echt Aqualung en Thick As A Brick hebben!!! Essentieel!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2004 at 07:51

Originally posted by Jim Garten Jim Garten wrote:

Corbet

As a total GG beginner, what do you recommend?

I've only got The Power And The Glory and it's GREAT! So I started with that one, maybe you'll like it too! Good luck, Jim!

(You should download the GG songs from www.progarchives.com of course, in the first place!)



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2004 at 10:32
Hey, I am new to GG myself and I found Octopus ata  book store and snatched it up. I'm still in shock at how good they are/were and impressed with the vocal choir work.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2004 at 11:44

I too only have The Power And The Glory and its very good.

I'll dissapoint some, but a freind brought over a few other Gentle Giant CDs and none other got to me.I don't know how to express it well but it was too much unmelodic and odd at times and going in too many different directions.A question of taste no doubt.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2004 at 11:53
Originally posted by Jim Garten Jim Garten wrote:

Corbet

As a total GG beginner, what do you recommend?
 
I started with Octopus...then came Gentle Giant...Free Hand/Interview (on one CD ), in a glass house and aquiring the taste...
 
I consider Free Hand as their best and would recommend to start with it...but any other would make it as well...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2004 at 11:54

Sometimes it's like that scene from Mr. Holland's Opus. Glenn Holland (Richard Dreyfus) tells his wife about being given an album from John Coltraine. He said he listened to it an thought it was the worst thing he'd ever heard. Then he played it again and again and again. Finally, he "got it." Then he began to play it over and over and it became special to him, changing his life's course.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2004 at 11:55
Originally posted by Joren Joren wrote:

Je moet natuurlijk niet bij de pakken neer gaan zitten, je hebt nog veel te doen! Maak je niet druk, ik heb ook nog maar 30 progalbums ofzo (van 400 CD's)

Maar van Jethro Tull (een van mijn favorieten momenteel) MOET je echt Aqualung en Thick As A Brick hebben!!! Essentieel!

 
It's really funny that you can understand this language as a german (only when it's written)...but to speak it, impossible...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2004 at 15:15

Radioactive Toy:

Don't listen to all these prog-rock wanna-be know-it-alls...

I am usually a strong believer in approaching a new group from earlier to later, since it gives a sense of the "progression" of the group.  Thus, I would normally tell you to get a group's first album first, and go from there. However, if I have to give you a couple or few of each, I would still keep them in chron order.  Thus:

Crimson: In the Court, Wake, Larks Tongues, Starless, Red

Floyd: Piper, Atom Heart, Meddle, Dark Side, Wish, Animals, Wall

Genesis: Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot, Selling England, The Lamb, Trick, W&W

Giant: Gentle Giant, Three Friends, In A Glass House

Yes: Time and a Word, Yes Album, Fragile, Close to the Edge

Moody Blues: Do them in strict chrono order.

ELP: ELP, Tarkus, Trilogy, Brain Salad

Tull: Thick as a Brick, Aqualung, Minstrel

Those would be my choices.  Happy listening!

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