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Sasquamo View Drop Down
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Points: 828 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Do you think John Bonham is overrated?
    Posted: October 26 2006 at 16:49

Look again.  He never said anything about Bonham's skill, he just said he knows that Bonham has influenced a lot of drummers.  If he was impressed with Bonham's skill, I'm sure he would have said so.   

Also, classical and jazz players often look down on rock musicians because of all the the flashy excesses of rock.  I'm sure jazz and classical musicians feel that many rock musicians don't even know how to play their instruments correctly, with drummers using their entire arm to play the instrument, thrashing around at random drums and cymbals, and have a death grip on their sticks with no room for rebound, all of which are horrible technique.  And guitarists and bassists playing their instuments down at their thighs.  Again, that's horrible technique, the only reason they can get away with that is that they don't have too many techniquely demanding things to play.  I'm sure it cracks jazz musicians up.
 
Of course little of what I said above applies to prog.Big smile
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Points: 3089 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2006 at 16:44
to me erskine's words say that he appreciated bonham's skills though he didn't like zeppelin, but he is saying this as gentle as possible. and it's actually normal for a jazz player and composer to dislike anything that's not jazz or classical (or even what's not jazz, sometimes), but to be able to appreciate one's performance on a specific instrument, out of it's context - even though this type of judgement is inadequate for rock.
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Points: 64375 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2006 at 16:37
Though it may seem like Erskine was 'just being nice', if you really read the letter, the language he uses to describe Bonham is very specific and rather impressive, especially from someone who is not a Zep fan. Sounds like genuine praise rather than hollow flattery.   
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Points: 828 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2006 at 16:29

Yes, that's exactly how I interpreted the letter.
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Points: 4702 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2006 at 06:01
Originally posted by Peter Rideout Peter Rideout wrote:

Just found this on a Peter Erskine (respected jazz drummer -- Weather Report, Steps Ahead, etc) forum. A fan had asked Erskine what he thought of Bonham as a drummer. Erskine responded:
 
   By Peter Erskine on Thursday, July 25, 2002 - 07:26 am: Edit Post

Francesco,

Thank you for your message, and greetings from the Steps Ahead tour (now in Catania, Sicily), we are looking forward to our concert in Lucca.

To be honest, while I appreciate the great and innovative and powerful drumming of John Bonham, I was never that much of a listener to or fan of Led Zeppelin ... so I do not have so much to say or offer in regards to his drumming, except to say that if you like it, then good! I know that his drumming legacy has inspired many drummers ...

Best wishes,
Peter Erskine




An (overly?) polite way of saying he doesn't like Bonham.

BTW, I'm not so sure Bruford likes Bonham. He doesn't hide his dislike of many drummers,  like Keith Moon, for example ("He just hit stuff").

Personally I like Bonham, but he's far from being my fav.
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Points: 64375 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2006 at 16:51
Fair enough, and I respect your honest appeal, but remember that words are all we have here- it's up to each of us to be clear about what we truly mean.
    

Edited by Atavachron - October 24 2006 at 16:51
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Points: 828 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2006 at 16:39
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

You brought it up-- and there was nothing humorous in the tone or language of the thread you started, in fact you attack and eviscerate him using terms like "boring" and "doesn't seem to care". It is vital to be clear - linguistcally clear - about what exactly your intention is. That includes qualification, i.e. showing some manners not only to the artist you criticize but to their fans who might read your post.
    
 
Drawing conclusions from the wording of my posts is pretty silly.  A million different people could interpret my wording to mean a million different things, not to mention that I most certainly did not pick the wording of my post to express what I thought.  My posts aren't poems-I just write the first thing that comes to mind, so you shouldn't be analyzing my diction.
 
Second off, why are you saying I am "attacking" the band and its fans?  I have my opinion, you may not like it but don't be so sensitive.  Like OpethGuitarist said in this thread:  When someone says they don't like a band like Led Zeppelin, people take it as a personal insult.  Have you thought that I may feel that my opinion is being attacked by the harsh words people are aiming at me for my dislike of Led Zeppelin and John Bonham? (I don't feel attacked at all, by the way, but I could if I overreacted).  Please, just because we don't agree doesn't mean I'm attacking your views.  Just please stopping ripping on me for my opinion.  Remember, I never made this thread personal, as I never said I didn't like fans of John Bonham.  It was those who critisized me who started to rip on me personally by accusing me of hurting their feeling, rather than just defending Bonham.
 
Well that's how I see it.Confused
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Points: 64375 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2006 at 16:16
Originally posted by andu andu wrote:

Originally posted by Sasquamo Sasquamo wrote:

First off, my story came from John Bonham's wife.  Second off, what do you mean "he always kept the song's main narration without ever altering it."  Moby Dick is an improvised drum solo. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, in case everyone wants a reason to dismiss my credibility.[IMG]height=17 alt=Wink src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle>)

 

ok, so it's the wife. i trust you.

what i meant was that he kept the "improvisation" exactly the same the whole decade. and belive me, cause i've listened to looots of bootlegs. the only period when you can call it "improvisation" was when it wasn't yet recorded and released and had a different name, "pat's delight" (btw, pat's the wife). one could even say it's a different song. at least the two 1969 pre-ZeppII i heard were very little related to the final version.

there's no credibility issue here [IMG]height=17 alt=Wink src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle>.


I think there is a HUGE credibility issue here- and it's terribly ironic that Bonham's widow is being held up as evidence in the author's ridiculous and embarrassing attack.
    
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andu View Drop Down
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Points: 3089 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2006 at 06:38
Originally posted by Sasquamo Sasquamo wrote:

First off, my story came from John Bonham's wife.  Second off, what do you mean "he always kept the song's main narration without ever altering it."  Moby Dick is an improvised drum solo. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, in case everyone wants a reason to dismiss my credibility.Wink)
 
ok, so it's the wife. i trust you.
what i meant was that he kept the "improvisation" exactly the same the whole decade. and belive me, cause i've listened to looots of bootlegs. the only period when you can call it "improvisation" was when it wasn't yet recorded and released and had a different name, "pat's delight" (btw, pat's the wife). one could even say it's a different song. at least the two 1969 pre-ZeppII i heard were very little related to the final version.
there's no credibility issue here Wink.
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Points: 366 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2006 at 06:36
Originally posted by Sasquamo Sasquamo wrote:

Seriously, I think John Bonham is a wildly overrated drummer.  I really don't think he's that great. 
Anyway, this is the main reason I don't like John Bonham's drumming: I think it's boring.  He often plays the same simple beats over and over again with little or (more often) no variation.  He seems to use one of the most simple rock beats ever (1 and 3 on bass drum, 2 and 4 on snare, eighth notes on hi-hat) a lot in the music.  Also, he doesn't seem to care about the phrasing of the music.  At the end of phrases, he often just plays time, when the music screams for a fill to fill in the empty space.  He doesn't play many fills at all.  I also find that his fills are often boring, which isn't helped when he plays the exact same fill again in the song.  When I listen to him drumming I often get the impression that he his playing off of a chart.
 
Does anyone agree? 
 
i agree.
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Points: 15535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2006 at 06:33
Originally posted by zappaholic zappaholic wrote:

Bonham was certainly not the most imaginative drummer in the world, but he was a rock-steady timekeeper.  He kept Zeppelin's sound anchored.
 
Bonham did play a key role in keeping Led Zeppelin's music steady. My brother is a great guitarist but without a steady beat he is unable to stay in time.
 
I do not think Bonham's overrated. It is hard to compare him to other drummers because we only have 12 years of his drumming to listen to, whereas Neil Peart has been drumming for about 30 years. Bonham is high on the list, for me, for good drummers with Neil Peart (obviously) and Ginger Baker.


Edited by progismylife - October 24 2006 at 06:36
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Points: 64375 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2006 at 00:34
You brought it up-- and there was nothing humorous in the tone or language of the thread you started, in fact you attack and eviscerate him using terms like "boring" and "doesn't seem to care". It is vital to be clear - linguistcally clear - about what exactly your intention is. That includes qualification, i.e. showing some manners not only to the artist you criticize but to their fans who might read your post.
    

Edited by Atavachron - October 24 2006 at 00:36
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Points: 828 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2006 at 19:02
Originally posted by Peter Rideout Peter Rideout wrote:

Originally posted by Sasquamo Sasquamo wrote:

A new law for the Prog Archives country: 

Freedom of Speech is allowed, but with the exception of publicly critisizing John Bonham or Led Zeppelin, which is considered a capital offense.
Don't be silly, or overly dramatic. No one is stopping you from writing what you want to about Bonham, are they?
 
I suppose my recent post provoked that wounded whine, did it? Wink
 
Look, Zeppelin are a HUGE, well loved & respected band in the history of rock. You should darned well expect to encounter some indignation when you take them on. Don't ask the question, if you can't take passionate opinions counter to your own! ("Freedom of speech" goes both ways.) Stern Smile
 
If you really want to know if Bonham was technically sub-standard, or less than good at his job, you need to get the opinions of those who worked with him.
 
To me, John Bonham (and each of his bandmates as well) was no "god" or anything, but a man (now, sadly, deceased) who happened to be a rock and roll drummer in one of the most important, successful bands in rock history. I think he did his job well, but I don't go around saying he was the "best," or constantly holding one rock musician up to another in some subjective, artificial "competition." I like him just as much as I think and say I do -- is that "overrated?" Where are these supposedly inflated ratings of Bonham that trouble you, anyway?  Confused
 
(I have a lot of trouble with the term "overrated.")
 
Anyway, it's only rock and roll (these guys are not classically trained, on the whole), but I like it! Bonham played with a lot of heart, and seemed to know how to handle his chosen instrument. (I think that's generally true of most professional musicians. Rock and roll is about feeling, attitude, a beat, hooks, heart -- if I want only amazing, virtuoso technical ability, I'll stick to classical and jazz. I don't expect everyone whom I enjoy in rock to always "blow me away" with blinding speed, incomprehensible rhythms or seemingly inhuman feats.
 
Most times, for me anyway, quite good is good enough. Once someone attains a certain professional level of expertise on their instrument, I really don't care who is a little "better" or faster than who. I either enjoy the music, or I don't.
 
Perhaps you just don't really enjoy Zep, and maybe even resent their popularity a tad.
 
I don't like the modern metal music of Dream Theater, and they are more successful on this prog forum than I perhaps might wish, but I certainly don't doubt their abilities to use their instruments to the levels that their fans expect, and their music demands. From what I've read here, they're all technically very good musicians. I have no reason to doubt that, nor have I ever questioned their abilities. They may even be really nice & intelligent people too, but that's irrelevant to me when forming an opinion of their songs.
 
Again: it's only rock and roll -- but I like it, like it, yes I do! Smile
 
 
 
Overly dramatic?  Whining?  Allow me to object, for that was a humorous (yet partly true) post.  You seem to be stressing the fact that you like John Bonham, and that your opinion is all that matters to you.  Have you considered that maybe I feel the exact same way?  Everyone is telling me that it's all a matter of opinion and then getting mad at me because my opinion isn't good enough. 
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Points: 828 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2006 at 18:56
Originally posted by andu andu wrote:

as jason bonham was two years old when his father started developing the themes (the whole was first called "Pat's Delight") and was three when he recorded it for the album with the definitve name, "moby dick", there is little or no connection between your story and the actual idea that may have led to the song's theme. and one doesn't need to read "moby dick" to picture the idea of "hunt" or "pursuite" in a particular way, like the one bonham used. i didn't say his idea came from the book, but that is similar.
also, if it was just "bonzo going crazy" there would be no coherence, but he always kept the song's main narration without ever altering it. led zeppelin became what it became firstly because bonham, the band's soul, never lost the grip on things. until a bad august night in 1980.

    
 
First off, my story came from John Bonham's wife.  Second off, what do you mean "he always kept the song's main narration without ever altering it."  Moby Dick is an improvised drum solo. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, in case everyone wants a reason to dismiss my credibility.Wink)


Edited by Sasquamo - October 23 2006 at 19:03
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Points: 3089 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2006 at 17:32
as jason bonham was two years old when his father started developing the themes (the whole was first called "Pat's Delight") and was three when he recorded it for the album with the definitve name, "moby dick", there is little or no connection between your story and the actual idea that may have led to the song's theme. and one doesn't need to read "moby dick" to picture the idea of "hunt" or "pursuite" in a particular way, like the one bonham used. i didn't say his idea came from the book, but that is similar.
also, if it was just "bonzo going crazy" there would be no coherence, but he always kept the song's main narration without ever altering it. led zeppelin became what it became firstly because bonham, the band's soul, never lost the grip on things. until a bad august night in 1980.
    

Edited by andu - October 23 2006 at 17:33
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Points: 828 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2006 at 16:43
Originally posted by andu andu wrote:

i have a theory on "moby dick". when i went from listening to the first album to listening to the second, i read some reviews concerning the poor musical performance on moby dick (stuff like "hey rock's not jazz, he'd better keep the teamplay and leave soloing for jazz drummers"), and with this idea in my head i too was disapointed. then i thought of the title - moby dick - and something interesting came in my head. i think the idea of the song is not melodic, but literary, and the musical structure is following the naration and that's why it troubles so many fans. as i have read moby dick and lots of jules verne novels about whale fishing, i saw a surprising similarity between the way i pictured a whale hunt and the musical naration. do you remember?: 1. the boats filled with sailors descend from the ship and start rowing towards the "crop fields" (agressive intro with guitar, bass and drums with strong riffs). 2. one boats picks a whale and starts aproaching it (drumming, not very strong but not very tempered also). 3. the boat gently approaches the whale in close distance (very tempered, murmured drumming; hand drumming sugests tiptoe sneaking) 4. climax: a sailor hits the whale with a harpoon (back to the sticks, climatic drumming episode) 5. the chase: the whale resists, sinks, comes back to surface, struggles, runs with the boat attched by the cable (strong agressive drumming for quite a long time, lots of thrills recurring with each struggling move of the whale) 6. surrender (the drumming descends in sound and attitude) 7 returning to the mother ship with the whale's body attached (triumphant entrance of the whole instrumental range of the band - bass, guitar, drums).

what do you think? to me, this explained the tricky structure and helped me get over the first impression disapointment. then, after intense bootleg listening, i started enjoying it more and more. the performance from the january 1970 royal albert hall concert (on the recent DVD) is now one of my favourites zepp performances.
 
Actually, I believe that John Bonham himself has stated himself that the only relation the song has the the book is that when he played it his son, who know about Moby Dick, said that the song was "big like Moby."  It's just John Bonham going crazy on the drums.
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Points: 828 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2006 at 16:37
Originally posted by Peter Rideout Peter Rideout wrote:

Just found this on a Peter Erskine (respected jazz drummer -- Weather Report, Steps Ahead, etc) forum. A fan had asked Erskine what he thought of Bonham as a drummer. Erskine responded:
 
   By Peter Erskine on Thursday, July 25, 2002 - 07:26 am: Edit Post

Francesco,

Thank you for your message, and greetings from the Steps Ahead tour (now in Catania, Sicily), we are looking forward to our concert in Lucca.

To be honest, while I appreciate the great and innovative and powerful drumming of John Bonham, I was never that much of a listener to or fan of Led Zeppelin ... so I do not have so much to say or offer in regards to his drumming, except to say that if you like it, then good! I know that his drumming legacy has inspired many drummers ...

Best wishes,
Peter Erskine

 
Note he didn't necessarily say he liked John Bonham's playing, he just said he is influential.  I myself don't doubt that he's influential, but I still don't like him.  You never know, that guy could actually not like John Bonham's drumming, and was just smart enough not to to say so (unlike me).
 
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Points: 461 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2006 at 16:11
Is Bonham overated? without doubt! He's a good rock drummer but nothing more. No more than most other drummers from respected 70s rock bands. I can't stand drum solos of any substancial length anyway but moby dick is something else. It just sounds like a war zone, not music
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Points: 3563 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2006 at 15:47
Originally posted by andu andu wrote:

i have a theory on "moby dick". when i went from listening to the first album to listening to the second, i read some reviews concerning the poor musical performance on moby dick (stuff like "hey rock's not jazz, he'd better keep the teamplay and leave soloing for jazz drummers"), and with this idea in my head i too was disapointed. then i thought of the title - moby dick - and something interesting came in my head. i think the idea of the song is not melodic, but literary, and the musical structure is following the naration and that's why it troubles so many fans. as i have read moby dick and lots of jules verne novels about whale fishing, i saw a surprising similarity between the way i pictured a whale hunt and the musical naration. do you remember?: 1. the boats filled with sailors descend from the ship and start rowing towards the "crop fields" (agressive intro with guitar, bass and drums with strong riffs). 2. one boats picks a whale and starts aproaching it (drumming, not very strong but not very tempered also). 3. the boat gently approaches the whale in close distance (very tempered, murmured drumming; hand drumming sugests tiptoe sneaking) 4. climax: a sailor hits the whale with a harpoon (back to the sticks, climatic drumming episode) 5. the chase: the whale resists, sinks, comes back to surface, struggles, runs with the boat attched by the cable (strong agressive drumming for quite a long time, lots of thrills recurring with each struggling move of the whale) 6. surrender (the drumming descends in sound and attitude) 7 returning to the mother ship with the whale's body attached (triumphant entrance of the whole instrumental range of the band - bass, guitar, drums).

what do you think? to me, this explained the tricky structure and helped me get over the first impression disapointment. then, after intense bootleg listening, i started enjoying it more and more. the performance from the january 1970 royal albert hall concert (on the recent DVD) is now one of my favourites zepp performances.


That is a very interesting thought indeed ClapClap, thanks for sharing it!!
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Points: 84 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2006 at 11:32
No, he is the best drummer i ever listen to.
If i have any spelling\grammar mistakes, ignore them. English is only my second language <_<

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