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Kotro 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 16 2004
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 2809
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 Topic: Top 100-Related
Posted: January 26 2007 at 09:03 |
Ok, we are all familiar with the argument "oh, prog-related doesn't mean progressive rock, it's just influences and minor details and such". Ok, most of us agree to this point. The entire section is filled up with bands that we are either totaly convinced they are prog, or completly unconvinced as to their single mention in a Progressive Rock database.
On my behalf, I can say that I agree with the "genre" and most of its acts. However, seeing, as stated above, that "prog-related doesn't mean progressive rock", then why, regardless of their value as music pieces, do we have Prog-Related albums in the Top 100/250/500? In my view, only strictly progressive rock album ratings should be accounted for the rankings, which do more than indulge our Prog rivalries - they are a source of information and recomendation to outsiders. Sure, there are no PR albums in the first 40, but we can find several starting from nº 41 on, starting with Deep Purple's "Made in Japan".
What are your thoughts on this? We can all agree that there are PR albums we might enjoy more than full-blown classic Prog-Albums. But should they count in a list that clearly states in its title "TOP 100 Progressive Music Albums"?
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Bigger on the inside.
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kazansky
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 24 2006
Location: Indonesia
Status: Offline
Points: 5085
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Posted: January 26 2007 at 09:13 |
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i won't call proto prog and prog related as a genre, it's more like a term that used in this site to point out why those bands are here regardless they aren't prog bands.
maybe it's a good idea to separate them into different top 100 list
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The devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us.
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24391
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Posted: January 26 2007 at 09:24 |
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Thank you for your well thought out, constructive post on a thorny subject, which far too often is dealt with in a gut-reaction manner. However, since I've been posting on PA I've read endless debates about that, but to all intents and purposes never really seen any suggestions as to how to go about it - starting from the problem of ratings.
Anyway, I agree that finding an album like "Made in Japan" (which of course I love to bits) in the Prog Top 100 may be puzzling, not to say misleading. I also think that people here, especially Collabs, instead of screaming to high heaven every time they see a PP or PR album in the Top 100, should be more proactive and actually start PROPOSING alternative ways to solve this not inconsiderable problem (just look at the number of dedicated threads springing up every week).
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Eetu Pellonpaa
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 17 2005
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 4828
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Posted: January 26 2007 at 09:28 |
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I think it would be a wonderful move to have two TOP lists, other for prog and other for Proto / Related. Even the discussion zones are separated, then why not the lists? Would it be technically challenging?
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laplace
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 06 2005
Location: popupControl();
Status: Offline
Points: 7606
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Posted: January 26 2007 at 09:31 |
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I had a feeling that people should be rating albums on their prog content rather than their overall quality. I think Iron Maiden's Powerslave is one of the great albums of our times but I'm not going to give it a five because I'm not convinced anything progressive happens until the last track.
it puzzles me that people are actually allowed to give the five star rating to prog-related bands at all.
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Philéas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 14 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 6419
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Posted: January 26 2007 at 09:44 |
 laplace wrote:
it puzzles me that people are actually allowed to give the five star rating to prog-related bands at all. |
I share this opinion. I don't really see how a band that isn't Prog could be essential to Prog collection.
The simplest way around this problem would be to rename the five star
rating, so that it will be something like "very, very good" instead of
"essential".
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chopper
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 19945
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Posted: January 26 2007 at 09:55 |
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I agree and have said this before - prog-related bands should not be in the top 100.
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Joolz
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 24 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1377
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Posted: January 26 2007 at 09:56 |
Philéas wrote:
laplace wrote:
it puzzles me that people are actually allowed to give the five star rating to prog-related bands at all. |
I share this opinion. I don't really see how a band that isn't Prog could be essential to Prog collection.
The simplest way around this problem would be to rename the five star
rating, so that it will be something like "very, very good" instead of
"essential".
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Nothing wrong with the 5 star definition, but too many people are giving 5 stars to non-Prog albums, in some case saying the equivalent of "well, its not Prog, but I love it to bits so I'm giving it 5" ... quite wrong IMO
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progismylife
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2006
Location: ibreathehelium
Status: Offline
Points: 15535
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Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:02 |
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So is there a way that a separate list of just proto/related bands could be on? We need help from people like MikeEnRegalia to figure out an algorithm if it is possible to do.
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kazansky
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 24 2006
Location: Indonesia
Status: Offline
Points: 5085
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Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:04 |
make a different list is the best sollution to end all the dispute over all these PP and PR matters IMO  hopefully...
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The devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us.
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moreitsythanyou
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: April 23 2006
Location: NYC
Status: Offline
Points: 11682
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Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:06 |
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I dont think it's an impending necessity but I certainly wouldn't mind seeing the proto/related albums off the top 100
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 <font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR]
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Vompatti
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: elsewhere
Status: Offline
Points: 67382
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Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:09 |
Should prog-related and proto-prog albums be rated by how good they are, or by their progressiveness and significance to prog? I think albums like Revolver and Strange Days are worth five star, but not really "masterpieces of progressive music". 
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Joolz
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 24 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1377
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Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:12 |
Vompatti wrote:
Should prog-related and proto-prog albums be rated by how good they are, or by their progressiveness and significance to prog? I think albums like Revolver and Strange Days are worth five star, but not really "masterpieces of progressive music".
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Well, they can't be 5 stars then On a general rock music site you would be quite at liberty to give them 5 stars [depending on any definition of course!]
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kazansky
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 24 2006
Location: Indonesia
Status: Offline
Points: 5085
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Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:14 |
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so they stuck to 4 stars regardless how briliant they are ?
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The devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us.
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progismylife
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2006
Location: ibreathehelium
Status: Offline
Points: 15535
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Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:15 |
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I wish people would do something about it instead of just sitting here and grumbling about how PR and PP are in the top 100. Not that you aren't just sitting there but "Let's See Action" (a song by The Who).
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24391
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Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:24 |
Philéas wrote:
laplace wrote:
it puzzles me that people are actually allowed to give the five star rating to prog-related bands at all. |
I share this opinion. I don't really see how a band that isn't Prog could be essential to Prog collection.
The simplest way around this problem would be to rename the five star
rating, so that it will be something like "very, very good" instead of
"essential".
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Exactly.... Personally, I think reviewers should allowed to give five stars to albums like, say, "Made in Japan", "Abbey Road", or "A Night at the Opera", which are not prog but masterpieces all the same, as well as influential in many respects. However, it is absolutely true that calling them masterpieces of prog is highly misleading. I remember someone in the past suggesting such a definition as 'a masterpiece of rock music', or even just 'a classic'. I have a request for all of you, though... Why don't you come up with a proposal of how to implement a different rating system for PP/PR albums, so that we Admins can submit it to the owners? Talking about things is all very good, but sometimes we should adopt a more pragmatic approach. PS: Progismylife, you took the words out of my mouth (or rather keyboard  )...
Edited by Ghost Rider - January 26 2007 at 10:26
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progismylife
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2006
Location: ibreathehelium
Status: Offline
Points: 15535
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Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:27 |
Ghost Rider wrote:
I have a request for all of you, though... Why don't you come up with a proposal of how to implement a different rating system for PP/PR albums, so that we Admins can submit it to the owners? Talking about things is all very good, but sometimes we should adopt a more pragmatic approach.
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I was trying to say that in my last post on here. I do not know (unfortunately) how to do this but I'm sure if we get people who can work with such things (like MikeEnRegailia) then it could happen. Maybe a thread in the Tech Talk section asking about how to do this?
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24391
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Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:34 |
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No, not Tech Talk, that's for things like stereos, CD players and such.. Help Improve the Site is the place to do it.
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progismylife
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2006
Location: ibreathehelium
Status: Offline
Points: 15535
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Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:36 |
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Well somebody should make a thread about how to do that sort of thing. It is a way to actually see some "progress" on this site.
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24391
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Posted: January 26 2007 at 10:41 |
OK, I'll open it and see what comes out of it... You all, though, try to be propositive and don't expect we Admins to do all the work! 
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Top 100-Related