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stonebeard View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Political discussion thread
    Posted: July 25 2007 at 01:40
Otherwise know as the "Discuss Politics Until Things Get Out of Control And Admins Close the Thread," or so past events dictate. Confused

Political discussions are my favorite.Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2007 at 02:02
what's the topic than?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2007 at 02:11
Oh, I dunno. I'm tired now, and was planning on going to sleep and being surprised on where the discussion had gone by morning. LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2007 at 02:14
I ain't keen to politics; but I lately wondering in what kind of misery is our politics heading again. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2007 at 07:35
ok.... the topic for the day...  since it is my birthday...

'immigration'  your thoughts?  and we'll go from there.

My thoughts..in short.

The current debates about immigration are insane... build a wall, people will get around, over, or under it.  Criminalize it? ..hahha that sure as hell hasn't worked.  Anyone who thinks that deporting all illegals is practical.. as well as even being good for this country is wacky in the head.  My solution....  open the borders, make it not tougher to get in.. but make it easier to come in AND be a legal tax paying citizen. 

what sayeth thee... those wimps on the left and right...
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2007 at 10:48
I agree that the process of coming here legally is broken and needs to be fixed- however, I disagree with illegal immigration because I think it's unfair to those who abide by the rules.  I've known many legal workers here from all over the globe who have struggled mightily to become a legal resident, get a green card, etc., and I just think it's a slap in the face to them to just walk over the border.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2007 at 11:01

First before any decision about those illegally in the country is made the border has to be sealed. Our border is far too large to be policed by man power alone; we will need a wall and as quick as possible. A country without a definable border is not a country at all.

Next the current laws we have codified must be enforced. There are plenty of good laws on the books that are never acted upon. Because of this businesses go about nearly publicly hiring illegal immigrants because they know they won't be forced to atone for their actions. Punishment of these business is already allowed by law and this is the easiest way to dissuade illegal immigration. It's far easier to run around and punish these business than it is to round up illegals. Without the incentive of willing employers far less will attempt to breach the border.

 

I'm against any kind of amnesty. Giving illegals citizen status isn't fair to those who have been legally waiting to gain entry to the country and more importantly we can't be rewarding people for breaking our laws.

 

Since the unconstitutionality of awarding citizenship to those born on U.S. soil of non-American citizens, I would like a constitutional amendment to clarify the language in the 14th amendment so that citizenship is not automatically granted to anyone born within the U.S. borders. This will dissuade further illegal immigration further and stop the abuse of American social programs by non-citizens.

 

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2007 at 11:11

Pat, I don't know of any European country that is fenced in. The prospect of building a fence is laughable in its simplicity. Who will build it? It sems that illegals make up a large portion of the manual labor population because a formal education is not needed. You'll be hard pressed to get an illegal immigrant to build a fence meant to keep others out.

 
Amnesty should not be given, but "illegals" (God I hate that term), should be allowed to queue up to get citizenship. Then they could wait with those who came legally. As the descendent of Scotch-Irish immigrants, I know that if Ireland bordered america, I doubt everyone would have had papers.Immigrants are the only people who still believe in the American Dream. The American Dream has been orrupted into the idea of making a lot of money quickly and without work. The true dream is that dilligence and hard work will pay off in the end. "ilegal" immigrants embody that fream more than anyone else in this country.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2007 at 11:30

Yes no European country has a fenced border but a majority of them are bound together by the EU. Contractors will build the fence here in America.

 

I don't necessarily have a problem with giving illegals here a chance to receive the proper documentation, as long as they reimburse the government for back taxes and for breaking our laws, but allowing them to remain in the country while this happens is de facto immigration.

 

I think to assert that the American Dream is dead in America is an insult to middle and lower class families working to raise their position in the social strata and forge a better life for their children. The American Dream is by no means dead in America and it is by no means embodied by people who's first act upon entering our country is breaking the law.

 

I would like to add a large disclaimer that what I'm about to say does not apply to all illegals, but

we can't have this romanticized view of illegals as humble workers trying to live the American Dream. Many of them are here just to give birth and reap the benefits of the state's welfare system.

 

To view a fenced border just as a matter of "illegal Immigration" is shortsighted also. Before you travel halfway around the world to fight terrorism in an foreign country, you should worry about it walking across your border as could easily be done  now. Of course, the governments refusal to track those here on visas and deport those here on expired ones adds a whole other dynamic I suppose.

 

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2007 at 11:45
Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

...I disagree with illegal immigration because I think it's unfair to those who abide by the rules.
 
I agree.  In the USA not taking measures to discipline the wrong-doers, a clear message is sent for the rule breaking to continue.
 
Immigration has its place most definitely but the abuse has got to stop. I think stiffer penalties to those found hiring illegals is a good idea.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2007 at 12:22
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

To view a fenced border just as a matter of "illegal Immigration" is shortsighted also. Before you travel halfway around the world to fight terrorism in an foreign country, you should worry about it walking across your border as could easily be done  now. 
I agree with that, but probably not in the manner you intended it. I believe we never should have entere iraq, but we'll save that for when that topic rolls around. Do you believe in fencing Canada? everyone talks about Mexico, but all of the 9/11 terrorists entered through Canadian/US border, which is the largest unguarded border in the world. I hate when people bring up the fence but never mention Cnada. Do both borders or do no borders.
 
[QUOTE=Equality 7-2521]Contractors will build the fence here in America. [/QUOTE} Contractors hire illegal immigrants.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2007 at 12:42
^ I believe we never should have entered Iraq too. I believe the Canadian border should be fenced too, but it's not nearly of as high of a priority as the Mexican. The Mexican government is in shambles and the country is run by drug cartels. That's were the greatest threat of illegal immigration and other illegal activities like drug trafficing and terrorism will come from.
 
Contractors hire illegals. If the illegals don't build the fence they get fired. Alls well.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2007 at 12:54
I agree that the legal immigration process should be made easier, but it is wrong to reward people for breaking the law. If we crack down on employers hiring illegals, the jobs will dry up and they will be forced to go home or apply for citizenship like everyone else. The borders must be closed for the simple reason that we need to know who is in the country if we have any hope of protecting ourselves from terrorism.
Making new laws is a waste of time and taxpayer money. We already have the laws we need, but no one seems to be willing to enforce them.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2007 at 13:20
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Yes no European country has a fenced border but a majority of them are bound together by the EU. Contractors will build the fence here in America.



Confused What's the relationship between these two sentences???



Anyway, despite the fact that we have the EU, immigration is up to national governments, not to the EU government. Fences, illegality don't work, nor does our current government focus on integration. The latter is saddening: instead of immigrants 'integrating', more and more of our own people start adopting the ways (religion, clothing, ideas) of the immigrants.

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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2007 at 13:26
^ The two sentences are related in responding point by point to 1900iareyay's post:
"Pat, I don't know of any European country that is fenced in. The prospect of building a fence is laughable in its simplicity. Who will build it? "
 
Yes it is sad that assimilation is no longer occuring. If it keeps occuring that way it will be much more than sad; it will be the end of the countries.
 
But fences certainly do work. I remember the Chinese having a problem with illegal immigration and building a pretty big fence that seemed to do the trick.
 
 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2007 at 13:33
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

^ The two sentences are related in responding point by point to 1900iareyay's post:
"Pat, I don't know of any European country that is fenced in. The prospect of building a fence is laughable in its simplicity. Who will build it? "
 
Yes it is sad that assimilation is no longer occuring. If it keeps occuring that way it will be much more than sad; it will be the end of the countries.
 
But fences certainly do work. I remember the Chinese having a problem with illegal immigration and building a pretty big fence that seemed to do the trick.
 
 


Yeah, that worked, in times when there were no airplanes and in an area where sea ports and rivers didn't provide back doors.

(Thanks for clarifying the sentences.)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2007 at 13:35
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

But fences certainly do work. I remember the Chinese having a problem with illegal immigration and building a pretty big fence that seemed to do the trick.
Those immigrants were invaders who wanted to sack, pillage, and rape everything in China. Not the same at all. Also, the bits of fence on the US/Mexico border are only a few feet high, whereas the Great Wall is about 20 feet high and made of sheer rock not easily climable chain link

Edited by 1800iareyay - July 25 2007 at 13:35
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2007 at 13:45
Ah! Reminds me of those two boarder patrol agents who shot a drug dealer in the ass who was crossing the boarder. He sued them, and now they're in jail. If Bush doesn't commute their sentences....I don't know. It's sick.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2007 at 13:50
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Ah! Reminds me of those two boarder patrol agents who shot a drug dealer in the ass who was crossing the boarder. He sued them, and now they're in jail. If Bush doesn't commute their sentences....I don't know. It's sick.
 
He won't commute them because they are not covering up his corruption.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2007 at 13:56
Well, I don't know how to solve it, but it does annoy me that whenever I walk through my town centre, I see illegal immigrants on their mobile 'phones, wearing the latest designer gear... whilst most legal citizens struggle to make a wage that will pay their mortgage/rent.
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