Yngwie Malmsteen - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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martinprog77 View Drop Down

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Posted: January 15 2008 at 04:43

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Posted: January 15 2008 at 05:23

Atavachron wrote:

the shredders (Malmsteen, George Bellas, Greg Howe, many others) don't seem to be of much interest here... the first Rising Force album is most definitely progressive for its time

I think from the examples of Greg Howe last few releases his music is maturing.

He seems to be one of the few shredders who has moved to jazz rock fusion, and does a pretty good job at it.

PS thanks for the reminder just discovered the following at Amazon.UK for less than a fiver - curious to hear what he does to Rush

Edited by Dick Heath - January 15 2008 at 05:24

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Posted: January 15 2008 at 16:03

Atavachron wrote:

well yes, but he also pioneered several important if simple techniques which created 'effects' now often used, such as continuous right hand muting, picking *each* note at previously unheard of precision and speeds (not even Uli was doing this, the only one coming close being Di Meola but in a Fusion context), and a tonal matrix imitated frequently now

I look at what you wrote and what I wrote and see much the same thing...

I think Vai had the precision and speed thing too, and I seem to remember hearing recordings of Holdsworth that predate Malmsteen, in which Allan sweep picks extraordinarily precisely.

Not trying to belittle Yngwie's achievements and influence, rather trying to put it into a bit of perspective. What he achieved was in terms of technique - Blackmore had already emphasised the cycle of fifths compositional technique in a few pieces (rather than as an overall style) - and personally, I think that Roth/Schenker brought more to the foundation of later progressive metal in terms of overall playing and composition technique.

I have to admit that Yngwie's precision/speed combination was very impressive at the time, but it's not really prog rock - at least, no more Prog than the Scorps, Priest, Ozzy/Rhoades or Metallica.

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Posted: January 15 2008 at 17:38

sure, prog or not isn't really important (PMT can figure that out).. as for Vai, brilliant and innovative player but much of what he was doing was an extension of what had come before him in the likes of Zappa and teacher Satriani.. whereas Malmsteen developed an entirely new way of approaching metal guitar that Schenker, Uli and Holdsworth really hadn't ever focused on [not sweeps, but each note of a given 'scale' played individualy in *sequence* with an up/down picking movement].. though I prefer Schenker and Uli's playing and they certainly had the initial tech impact on other players including Malmsteen (of this he makes no secret)

Edited by Atavachron - January 15 2008 at 20:00

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Posted: January 15 2008 at 20:03

Dick Heath wrote:

PS thanks for the reminder just discovered the following at Amazon.UK for less than a fiver - curious to hear what he does to Rush

pretty good 'La Villa' cover, nothing terribly new but a nice interpretation.. and a very good album

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Posted: January 17 2008 at 07:55

Atavachron wrote:

sure, prog or not isn't really important (PMT can figure that out).. as for Vai, brilliant and innovative player but much of what he was doing was an extension of what had come before him in the likes of Zappa and teacher Satriani.. whereas Malmsteen developed an entirely new way of approaching metal guitar that Schenker, Uli and Holdsworth really hadn't ever focused on [not sweeps, but each note of a given 'scale' played individualy in *sequence* with an up/down picking movement].. though I prefer Schenker and Uli's playing and they certainly had the initial tech impact on other players including Malmsteen (of this he makes no secret)

er... when I said "sweep-picking", I actually meant "alternate picking"...

...and it's evident in the playing of the gentlemen I named - don't forget that Vai was using many of these techniques and more when he played with Zappa in the very early 1980s - well before "Rising Force". Listen to his playing on "Ship Arriving Too Late to Save a Drowning Witch", where Zappa has credited him with "Impossible Guitar".

There's also some amazing playing in a prototype of this style on "Skid", the debut album from Skid Row... I mean the UK band that formed around 1970, featuring a 17 year-old Gary Moore.

Sure, Yngwie brought spit and polish to the style, but I believe that all the techniques were in place before he popularised them - I don't think any of it was entirely new. It was a similar leap in style/technique to Eddie Van Halen before him.

As far as Prog or not - well, that's the whole point of this discussion, isn't it?

I'm not trying to knock what Yngwie achieved - I wouldn't have bought (or kept!) his first 3 albums if I didn't think there was something of merit in them - I merely think that he crystallised existing forms and techniques, bringing a new level of virtuosity to them - hence technical, as opposed to something truly new/progressive.

I'd compare what Malmsteen achieved to Paganini (except that no-one has ever played the violin as fast as Paganini - all interpretations of his music I've ever heard have struggled, apart from Lloyd Webber's rather relaxed composition). However, despite the astonishing speed of Paganini's violin solos, the compositions break no new musical ground, and compare very poorly to, for example, Beethoven or Debussy.

That said, Paganini remains a landmark in solo violin playing, taking the virtuosity of the Italian masters - including the grand master, Tartini, to the next level.

I'd be interested in what, exactly, Malmsteen did that was so new.

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Posted: January 18 2008 at 11:49

^Well, many argue he brought a new way of composing into the rock/heavy metal idiom. As for his technique, his use of diminished and major/minor arpeggios that linked longways (as opposed to from just lower to higher strings or vice versa) across the fretboard gave a new perspective of what would become possible with the sweep-picking technique. Jason Becker, Marty Friedman and Frank Gambale are some of the most prominent sweep pickers to have come on the scene later in the 80s, that had a bit impact on the evolution of sweep-picking.

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Posted: January 18 2008 at 18:12

I know you respect him Cert, I'm just bickering Wink

...he didn't really bring anything 'new' by a strict definition, it's true-- Eddie and the others mentioned were much more revolutionary, but I guess Yngwie was evolutionary, the form brought to its very height.. in fact in metal guitar few if any newer players have surpassed Malmsteen technically

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Posted: January 18 2008 at 22:35

While certainly Malmsteen is still regarded as a highly technical, as a fan of not just Prog rock/metal, but also Heavy Metal in general, i can easily say there are more than just "a few" newer players that have surpassed Malmsteen's technicality. I could in fact probably name a list that is longer than my arm, but I'll just list some of the more well known Metal guitarist virtuosos that have exceeded Malmsteen's technical skill. Jeff Loomis from Nevermore, with not only insane lead chops, but incredible heavy metal rhythm guitar prowess and one of most accurate and precise 7 string virtuosos live. Jasun Tipton, of Prog metal band Zero Hour fame (listed on Progarchive.com as well

), another 7 string virtuoso, with absolutely insane sweep picking chops, as well as awesome rhythm guitar capabilities. Rusty Cooley of Outworld fame, a 7 and 8 string virtuoso, with chops superior to Malmsteen's in sweep-picking, alternate picking, two hand tapping, legato and even rhythm guitar ability as well.

Edited by HughesJB4 - January 18 2008 at 22:37

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Posted: January 18 2008 at 22:50

I believe that if Yngwie Malmsteen should be included it should be in Propg Metal, anywhere else is silly, he's bassically a neo Classical Metal Guitar player, so if he goes anywhere is in Prog Metal.

Prog Related is not the place for the rejeted artists of any sub-genre, so if Prog Metal doesn't want him, he shouldn't be added anywhere else because it would be misleading, we have already three Prog Metal sub-genres, so if he doesn't fit in any one despite his 100% Metal background, he doesn't belong in Prog Archives.

And again The if Sabbath why not Malmsteen argument was, is and will be flawed, any artist inclusion is decided by his own merits, not by comparison.

BTW: His technicality, skills, greatness or how much anybody can like his first album, is not a valid argument for inclusion.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 18 2008 at 22:52

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Posted: January 18 2008 at 23:24

well as usual.... I'm going to disagree with Ivan yet again...

he is not a 'prog metal' arist.... I think most people can see that.. he doesn't fit what I come to find what prog metal is about in my explorations and following what that team does... and prog related is actually a good damn good fit for him.

The Prog Metal team should have a say. .. first dibs if you will..... if they reject ..(as I'm sure they probably will.. christ.. if Metaliica didn't fit PM.. will Malmsteen hahaha) then I'll submit this to the admin team for a vote. He like some other artists here.. is a long overdue addition here....

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Posted: January 18 2008 at 23:46

HughesJB4 wrote:

Jeff Loomis from Nevermore, with not only insane lead chops, but incredible heavy metal rhythm guitar prowess and one of most accurate and precise 7 string virtuosos live. Jasun Tipton, of Prog metal band Zero Hour fame (listed on Progarchive.com as well

I don't doubt it, but did they bring something as new to the table as Malmsteen did? Or is much of it piled upon every metal guitarist before them ..what Yngwie did was as new to rock guitar as Eddie and Randy Rhoads had been ..it's impact we're really talking here, on top of technical innovations

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Posted: January 18 2008 at 23:53

Atavachron wrote:

very well said David Clap

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Posted: January 19 2008 at 00:28

Atavachron wrote:

I don't doubt it, but did they bring something as new to the table as Malmsteen did? Or is much of it piled upon every metal guitarist before them ..what Yngwie did was as new to rock guitar as Eddie and Randy Rhoads had been ..it's impact we're really talking here, on top of technical innovations

In first´place I will keep my opinion because I'm not sure if Malmsteen should be here but just have a question:

Is bringing something new to music?
Being better than most or every METAL guitarist?
Doing something new in Rock?
Having impact?

Being Prog or Prog Related?

You have said it, what Yngwie did is as new as what Eddie Van Halen did.....But is Eddie Van Halen here or should be just because he has a great technique and a lot of fans?

Yes many people consider Malmsteen the peak of the crop in Metal guitar players...But is this Prog or Prog Related?

I still believe Prog Related is not a priority here, there are more pages about Prog Related bands than about real Prog bands, there are lots of Collaborators silently working hard on Prog bands (for weeks, months and even years) but when a determined team informs about the additios and inprovements of the PROGRESSIVE ROCK GENRES, nobody gives a damn, it's frustrating to see how this threads vanish after two or three replies of the same members.

On the other hand it's enough to say Toto, Boston or Malmsteen to have a lot of responses, that's why the forum is becoming more boring and lack of interest lately.

People complained when Art Rock became the dumping place for bands that where not accepted by other genres (at least then this bands were 100% Prog), but now we are using Prog Related as dumping ground for popular rejected bands.

"Hey, X band was rejected by Z Team.....Don't worry, we always have the back door called Prog Related"

I don't ask to leave Prog Related outside, but is not Progressive Rock our first priority?

My two cents.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 19 2008 at 00:40

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Posted: January 19 2008 at 00:31

yes Ivan, you're quite correct ..no worries, I just felt like debating it

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Posted: January 19 2008 at 00:40

I think that Yngwie Malmsteen should not be in Prog-Metal.

He's a master. He has done a lot for the instrument. For GUITAR playing.

What we're not about INSTRUMENTS. This is not prog-guitar-archives.com. We're about the whole thing. The music. And the music is heavy metal, heavy power virtuosic symphonic bombastic whatever grandiose term metal. The structures are typical, the songs are typical, it's the PLAYING that is superb. But, again, this is not Instrument-archives.com

I think for his influence he should be considered (CONSIDERED) fr Prog Related.

As Micky said, if Metallica is not here (why I still don't know.. oH, wait! It's the name...), Malsteen can't really fit. I know, that's a weak argument, but an argument nevertheless.

As for prog-metal, there are groups out there that should deserve a consideration EVEN for prog-related before Malsteen (Mercyful Fate, to name a relatively popular one).

I don't run the website. I understand why some say prog-related shouldn't even be discussed. I say: Malsteem could work as prog-related (he HAS influenced the playing of xillions of guitarist in the prog-metal world) but his MUSIC is not progressive-metal.

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Posted: January 19 2008 at 00:53

I don't understand why people want Metallica here. In their heyday they were thrash metal with neo-classical guitar solos and that's about it. In my mind, it wouldn't make sense to put a band here just because their solos sounded progressive...

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Posted: January 19 2008 at 01:03

The T wrote:

I think that Yngwie Malmsteen should not be in Prog-Metal.

He's a master. He has done a lot for the instrument. For GUITAR playing.

I think for his influence he should be considered (CONSIDERED) fr Prog Related.

As Micky said, if Metallica is not here (why I still don't know.. oH, wait! It's the name...), Malsteen can't really fit. I know, that's a weak argument, but an argument nevertheless.

As for prog-metal, there are groups out there that should deserve a consideration EVEN for prog-related before Malsteen (Mercyful Fate, to name a relatively popular one).

I'm glad you're addressing that, cause there are many virtuosos and shred-meisters that could be considered progressive, but you guys have to have some parameters and I respect that

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Posted: January 19 2008 at 01:12

exactly Teo, I didn't see him as Prog Metal earlier.. not as you have defined it at least... but could be considered prog enough to merit finding a place for him. Malmsteen.. in mixing guitar virtuosity.. metal if you want to call it that.. and classical influences.... wait.... a decade earlier.. didn't doing about the same get you called 'prog'.. what changed running up to 1984. It isn't PM ...again.. I think most would agree. However he might be close enough to prog perhaps to be.. .as I said.. a great addtion to PR...

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Posted: January 19 2008 at 01:19

Avantgardehead wrote:

I don't understand why people want Metallica here. In their heyday they were thrash metal with neo-classical guitar solos and that's about it. In my mind, it wouldn't make sense to put a band here just because their solos sounded progressive...

It's obvious that, while you surely know your avant-garde, your concept of progressive-metal is limited... and also, that you haven't heard Metallica.

But that's another discussion for another thread which is innecessary as the owners don't want them here.

As for Yngwie, I would support an addition in Prog-related. I think he has enough merits. But guitar virtuosiy alone is not a factor for prog-metal (if it was, let's bring all the Iced Earth, Hammerfall, Primal Fear, Helloween, etc to PA... and believe me, I like some of them, but this is not speedy-fingers-archives.com or shreddingarchives.com...)