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Topic ClosedAlternative Fuels
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Poll Question: What do you think is the best choice for an alternative fuel?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
2 [22.22%]
0 [0.00%]
1 [11.11%]
4 [44.44%]
2 [22.22%]
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crimhead View Drop Down
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    Posted: June 13 2008 at 12:15
Just sitting around and thinking about oil prices and our alternatives
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2008 at 12:21
I'd prefer electric cars myself, if they can improve storage devices (supercapacitors, etc.).  Not a fan of any of the listed choices, although maybe biomass, but there maybe algae instead of grasses - smaller spatial footprint for processing?  Haven't looked into it too closely to be honest.
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Points: 29625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2008 at 12:56
Not really an either or proposition.  Everything should be explored.

Here's somethings to cheers youse up:
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 19236 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2008 at 13:10
Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

I'd prefer electric cars myself, if they can improve storage devices (supercapacitors, etc.).  Not a fan of any of the listed choices, although maybe biomass, but there maybe algae instead of grasses - smaller spatial footprint for processing?  Haven't looked into it too closely to be honest.


Here's your electric car.....


http://www.pinktentacle.com/2008/06/superconductor-electric-vehicle/
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2008 at 13:29
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Not really an either or proposition.  Everything should be explored.



Well, we were asked what we think is best - currently I think all these options are being explored at some level.
And the first cartoon is a bit silly, the windfall tax isn't going to solve price problems.
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Points: 29625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2008 at 14:04
Oh, and I suppose the other cartoons aren't silly? Angry

Edited by Slartibartfast - June 13 2008 at 14:10
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2008 at 14:35
I think the bottom one is my favorite
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Points: 314 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2008 at 15:33
GM%20Hydrogen%20Car%20-%20The%20Sequel
Hydrogen! Thumbs%20Up
 
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2008 at 15:38
Electric cars = rely on electricity provided by plants that need oil to run

Biofeuls = food prices go up, starvation in 3rd world countries

Hydrogen = pretty good as far as I know
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2008 at 15:39
Originally posted by Relayer09 Relayer09 wrote:

GM%20Hydrogen%20Car%20-%20The%20Sequel
Hydrogen! Thumbs%20Up
 


This may work eventually, but I think we have to get clean, abundant electricity first - drive the costs near to zero.  I say this because there is not a lot of "free" hydrogen just hanging around, but there's plenty of water.  So the fuel cell as storage of the cheap electric power can work, and of course you recycle the output for more electrolysis.
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2008 at 15:40
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Electric cars = rely on electricity provided by plants that need oil to run.


Oil powers very little of American power plants - around maybe 3%.  With alternative energy production (nuclear probably best short term) we could drive it to zero perhaps.

Also re: biofuels, if you want to go that route make it grasses or algae.  Absolutely ludicrous to be using your food supply for fuel.


Edited by NaturalScience - June 13 2008 at 15:41
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Points: 314 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2008 at 15:49
Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

Originally posted by Relayer09 Relayer09 wrote:

GM%20Hydrogen%20Car%20-%20The%20Sequel
Hydrogen! Thumbs%20Up
 


This may work eventually, but I think we have to get clean, abundant electricity first - drive the costs near to zero.  I say this because there is not a lot of "free" hydrogen just hanging around, but there's plenty of water.  So the fuel cell as storage of the cheap electric power can work, and of course you recycle the output for more electrolysis.
 
2010 is only two years away and hydrogen is the most abundant chemical element in the universe.
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2008 at 15:53
Originally posted by Relayer09 Relayer09 wrote:

Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

Originally posted by Relayer09 Relayer09 wrote:

GM%20Hydrogen%20Car%20-%20The%20Sequel
Hydrogen! Thumbs%20Up
 


This may work eventually, but I think we have to get clean, abundant electricity first - drive the costs near to zero.  I say this because there is not a lot of "free" hydrogen just hanging around, but there's plenty of water.  So the fuel cell as storage of the cheap electric power can work, and of course you recycle the output for more electrolysis.
 
2010 is only two years away and hydrogen is the most abundant chemical element in the universe.


Unfortunately we inhabit a tiny speck of the universe where "free" molecular hydrogen is not readily available.
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Points: 314 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2008 at 16:02
Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

Originally posted by Relayer09 Relayer09 wrote:

Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

Originally posted by Relayer09 Relayer09 wrote:

GM%20Hydrogen%20Car%20-%20The%20Sequel
Hydrogen! Thumbs%20Up
 


This may work eventually, but I think we have to get clean, abundant electricity first - drive the costs near to zero.  I say this because there is not a lot of "free" hydrogen just hanging around, but there's plenty of water.  So the fuel cell as storage of the cheap electric power can work, and of course you recycle the output for more electrolysis.
 
2010 is only two years away and hydrogen is the most abundant chemical element in the universe.


Unfortunately we inhabit a tiny speck of the universe where "free" molecular hydrogen is not readily available.
 
Hydrogen can be produced from water by electrolysis. 3/4 of our planet is covered by water. We're not in short supply by any means. Since the only bi-product of the hydrogen fuel cell is water vapor we're in essence replenishing our consumption through our usage.
 
Hydrogen can also be produced from coal, natural gas, several biological processes as well.
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2008 at 16:15
isn't this what i said in my original post?

"This may work eventually, but I think we have to get clean, abundant electricity first - drive the costs near to zero.  I say this because there is not a lot of "free" hydrogen just hanging around, but there's plenty of water.  So the fuel cell as storage of the cheap electric power can work, and of course you recycle the output for more electrolysis."

My only point is, whereas fossil fuels were a sort of "built in" energy store (though energy is required for distillation/refinement), hydrogen fuel cells are just a battery, a transfer mechanism.  The original source still has to be something else.


Edited by NaturalScience - June 13 2008 at 16:18
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Points: 3839 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2008 at 16:24
The major problem is that shaking the oil addiction will require a massive paradigm shift worldwide.
 
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Electric cars = rely on electricity provided by plants that need oil to run
 
This is true, but there are many ways to generate electricity (water, wind, solar) which are well on their way to being implemented more often.  Plugging in an electric car at the end of the day won't really put much more of a drain on the electric grid than watching tv or running a PC.

Biofeuls = food prices go up, starvation in 3rd world countries
 
I think this point is overhyped.  All it takes is a little planning.  There's plenty of land to be planted around the world, and corn grown in Indiana has very little to do with starvation in the 3rd world.

Hydrogen = pretty good as far as I know
 
Still dangerous and expensive to implement.  Until the Hydrogen engine can be made safe and as cheap as oil burning cars, this won't be a popular option.  I think it's an interesting prospect for 10-15 years from now.
 
for now, a focus on using oil-burning cars less would help, and the popularity of hybrids and soon electrics will help.  Mass transit would be good, but most cities don't have great transit.  It's just a shame that most american cities grew based on the availability of automobiles, so now most people can't get around without one.  I know if it were viable for me, I'd ride my bike everywhere, but as it is, with the way the city is set up, I'd get killed.
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Points: 314 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2008 at 16:38
Originally posted by NaturalScience NaturalScience wrote:

isn't this what i said in my original post?

"This may work eventually, but I think we have to get clean, abundant electricity first - drive the costs near to zero.  I say this because there is not a lot of "free" hydrogen just hanging around, but there's plenty of water.  So the fuel cell as storage of the cheap electric power can work, and of course you recycle the output for more electrolysis."

My only point is, whereas fossil fuels were a sort of "built in" energy store (though energy is required for distillation/refinement), hydrogen fuel cells are just a battery, a transfer mechanism.  The original source still has to be something else.
 
We are definetly on the same page here. Where I would differ is in that there is actually alot of "free" hydrogen available. Just as oil has to be refined before you can use it to fuel your car, also would your primary source of hydrogen ( water, coal, natural gas, microbial waste, etc) have to go through a "refining" process before you could fuel your car with it as well. The hydrogen is there for the taking, it's just that our governments and industries need a boot put to their collective asses to start making a real and significant effort convert over to this type of alternative fuel and put their greed aside for a time for the benefit of the planet as a whole. I think this has begun happening with the automotive industry closing truck and SUV plants to bring new plants online to build alternative energy cars. It also seems to have begun in Europe with the recent demonstrations in the U.K. and Spain.
Keeping my fingers crossed.
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Points: 16310 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2008 at 16:44
For the time being, hybrids are our best bet.
Honda still has not released the details on their new hybrids.
Electrics are the next best thing, as of today. The only problem is the charging cycle.
No way in hell am I(or the public in general) going to go about 100 miles and then have to charge for more than 4 hours just to go 100 miles more.
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Points: 4338 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2008 at 17:10
Fuel from food is the last thing we need to do.  We don't have enough affective farm land to grow food as it is anyway.  It was distressing to hear that many farmers were moving towards growing food for fuel rather than food. 
 
All other areas should be explored except anything that involves fresh water is out too. 
Maybe we should just get out and push! Wink
 
Stonie you really from San Bernardino? 
 
 


Edited by Garion81 - June 13 2008 at 17:11


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Points: 19236 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2008 at 23:15
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Biofeuls = food prices go up, starvation in 3rd world countries


Biofuels from hemp would not depleat food supplies. I have read that if we used 18% of the agriculture acreage that we have to grow hemp it would meet our fuel needs.
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