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debrewguy 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
 Posted: July 10 2009 at 14:11 |
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Raven ! In a way, their career arc resembles Voivod's. Once both groups hit their stride, they both had opening acts that would go on to hit the big time while they never got past having a "solid" career.
Good point on Diamond Head & MCA. That's also what seemed to happen to Raven's music after All for One. Stay Hard had two good songs, and the rest sounded stilted or forced. The Pack is Back was better, but too commercial, and they lost the crash bang wallop attitude that had earned them fans in the first place. And even when they went "me(n)tal" again, they never (IMO) really put out a really good album. The "Mad" EP was pretty good. But apart from Life's A Bitch, they never put out anything that cold have brought them back to the spotlight. But if you like Raven, you gotta get that one, as it matches All for One. |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: July 10 2009 at 15:33 |
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It's not really thrash, like Exciter is, though. It's got that "dum-digga-dum-digga-dum" chug so beloved of Iron Maiden - I can't think of an Iron Maiden song post their 1st 2 albums (I agree, they're the best!) that doesn't use that rhythm. Exciter has the continual "dugga-dugga--dugga-dugga" in the rhythm guitars combined with the snare backbeat over double bass drums that is the core of thrash. You can hear it plainly in the music of "Kill 'Em All" - especially "Whiplash" and "Metal Militia", except that Metallica extended the technique to use full chords rather than single note riffing, played a sight faster, and added really sneaky accenting - you really don't hear this in other thrash-oriented metal bands of the time or later. Whiplash is a prime example - it ain't just mindless thrashing like Venom - although Metal Militia might be a bit mindless (and based on "Black Metal")... I love the way the chorus riff of MM creates a kind of vortex that sucks you in. Great!
A bit like Frijid Pink in the late 1960s-early 1970s - they had this new band called Led Zeppelin opening for them...
"Borrowed Time" is good - really good, in a kind of progressive blues-rock-metal kind of way, but the songs that originally appeared on "The White Album" were pale compared to the aggressive originals. Canterbury is a really odd album though - 50% of it seems like pop rubbish - what were they thinking? But the other 50% is years ahead of its time - I'm not sure if the world has caught up yet or not. Tracks like "Knight of the Swords", "Ishmael" and "To The Devil His Due" are amazing interpretations of Heavy Metal and what can be done with it. Tell me those songs aren't Prog Metal!
I saw a fairly recent interview with them, in which they said they'd gone back to the "All for One " sound for the album they were putting out back then - can't remember when that was - but I didn't believe them, because I felt really bitten by "Stay Hard" and "Nothing Exceeds...", both lacklustre albums. AFO is fantastic, if a bit radio-oriented. Tracks like "Mind Over Metal", the title track - and the epic verging-on-Prog "Run Silent Run Deep" (which concept I always felt Maiden ripped off when they did "Rime of the Ancient Mariner"). Of particular note is the breakdown section from about 2:25 onwards, which shows just how versatile Raven were. I love Mark Gallagher's constant use of harmonics for decoration, and the wierd stop/start rhythms. Have you heard their most recent album, "Walk Through Fire"? |
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Windhawk
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 28 2006 Location: Norway Status: Offline Points: 11400 |
Posted: July 10 2009 at 15:44 |
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Nice to see the NWOBHM getting a mention in here. Although not as overlooked as they once were, Blitzkrieg are still worth mentioning - especially when Satan was brought into the debate. Metallixa did cover Blitzkrieg, but how many are familiar with the other tunes they had - which eventually and finally and very long overdue got issued on vinyl in 1985?
Like the title track of that same album - A Time of Changes Nothing revolutionary in 1985, but would have been if the song had ben recorded closer to it's date of creation from what I understand :-) I do wonder how much (or not) and act like Virgin Steele have impacted prog metal too - any notions on that one? They were never the most proggy outfit from a technical nor compositional point of view I guess, especially after Starr left them, but they had some stuff going with atmospheric moods that wasn't exactly standard fare in the metal scene of the mid 80's - as showcased in the end of the title track off their third album Noble Savage And on their first two albums they did have some rather "advanced" stuff as well - in the context of being a metal band at that time. |
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Websites I work with:
http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 64460 |
Posted: July 10 2009 at 16:52 |
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right, that's my point about progressive metal evolving independently from the prog genre, coming into its own through the use of classical and other technique rather than by a prog influence-- the fact that Prog rock and Prog metal both utilize classical music ideas does not necessarily indicate a direct lineage between the two, and though the S.F. bands were partly influnenced by Saga, Rush and Yes they were far more impacted by the dual guitar lines and arrangements of the Scorps, Priest and Maiden.. seems to me the development of a technical - or increasingly technical - approach in metal comes from its own players, each building on the last; Page, Iommi, Blackmore, Schenker, Roth, Moore, Scholz, VanHalen, Rhoads, Malmsteen, Jarzombek, etc., rather than a direct connection to any 'prog' or 'art rock' movement. I strongly suspect progressive and tech metal would have developed much like it is now without Crimson, Yes or Genesis. Edited by Atavachron - July 10 2009 at 17:27 |
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: July 10 2009 at 20:45 |
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The last album I listened to from Raven was One for All, Raven's way of saying they were back to the All for One sound. But the songwriting wasn't there, though the attitude was.
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: July 10 2009 at 22:43 |
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True, but speed it up a hell lot and replace Halford's clean singing with gruff punk shouts and then hear the difference! It's interesting that Metallica's debut always seems to evoke Motorhead to mind while Slayer's own does in fact bring Judas Priest to mind. I am not sure how much of a link there is though between Show No Mercy - other than the track Black Magic - and what Slayer proceeded to do on the next EP and full length respectively, they just became a different band!
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 07 2008 Location: Philadelphia,PA Status: Offline Points: 7826 |
Posted: July 11 2009 at 07:25 |
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Without Metallica prog metal would probably NOT exist. In addition to that, the founder of PA wanted them here, and if he wants it then it should be there without 20-page discussions like this.
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: July 11 2009 at 10:38 |
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They're here, so deserve to be discusssed as much as any other group - the fact that general perception is that they're a bit on the controversial side for a site like this is what generates so much discussion. You should have seen the fallout from Radiohead, Queen or Iron Maiden...
Frankly I'd rather have one 20-page discussion (which hasn't been so much about the validity of Metallica recently, but focussed more on the discussion of other related bands) than 20 1-page discussions.
Besides, the NWoBHM was a progressive time for metal and is fundamental to the evolution of Prog Metal, and the music that gave rise to bands like Metallica, Dream Theater et al - so this is a good side discussion, IMO.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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CPicard
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: October 03 2008 Location: Là, sui monti. Status: Offline Points: 10837 |
Posted: July 11 2009 at 10:51 |
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I will assume that these sentences are both ironical. |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 32844 |
Posted: July 11 2009 at 11:09 |
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I'm no expert on metal, progressive or otherwise, but I would never have thought that. Incidentally, I think Watchtower was making Prog Metal when Metallica was making more "Prog Related music". Metallica certainly was very influential to prog metal, but then so were other metal bands such as Iron Maiden and Megadeath (and Exodus I would think). And informed by early metal bands such as Black Sabbath. How influential was Judas Priest? I just don't think that one could assume that is one band had not existed that there would be no progressive metal, and I'd say the same of progressive rock. I'm sure there would be progressive rock bands that would experiment with metal, metal bands that would experiment with progressive rock (say hybridastions of classic Prog and heavy metal), and there would those metal innovators who expand the frontiers and lexicon of metal. |
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: July 11 2009 at 11:12 |
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Well, I just commented in a PM I sent as to how this thread has actually become a great example of what our community can bring forth in a discussion.
Certif1ed & Transgressor really brought up the detailed debate points. This is much appreciated in contrast to "they are so / they are not" arguements too often found here. You had Progfreak join in with his own analysis. Weve seen admin & other collabs join in. And in a grand show of side tracking that ends up still fitting in with the original thread - a bonanza of talk about other bands that influenced or were influenced Metallica, and also mentions of other bands that started out at the same time as Metallica. Let the intelligent writerings go on  NWOBHM - Tygers of Pan Tang - if they had managed to keep up the songwriting quality of Spellbound, they could have been a Deep Purple - Jon Deverill was that good a singer. |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: July 11 2009 at 16:39 |
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Watchtower certainly played some very technical metal - but I wouldn't call it Prog metal per se - the two are different things.
Watchtower also didn't release anything until 1985 - but, according to the Wikipedia article, Lars Ulrich was spotted wearing a Watchtower shirt around the time of "Justice..." - and the style of "Justice" is notably more technique oriented than "Master", so the connection is probably there.
Metallica were Prog related on their first album to my ears - and Watchtower basically wrote standard songs with lots of technical stuff. They didn't really do the "turn it upside down" thing as per Keith Emerson's quote defining Prog.
I think Metallica played Prog Metal - and while it's taking it's time to sink in, no-one has actually proven me wrong.
I don't think Maiden, Megadeth or Exodus played it - although Maiden and Megadeth certainly brought some interesting things to the table. Metallica were very different - get hold of a copy of the first Speed Kills compliation, and the first Metal Massacre compilation and see how different they were at the time.
Sabbath and Priest influenced just about all heavy metal - there's almost no escaping them.
Influence is just one tiny part of it all.
Even Dream Theater acknowledge the importance of Metallica (and Maiden, who have been here a lot longer than Metallica) in their own music - it's not just simple influence, a trademark (like Iommi's tritones and drop tuning, or Priest's twin-barrel leads and fast riffing), it's a way of writing metal. Metallica brought something entirely new to the metal party, and everyone (Watchtower included) wanted a slice.
Exodus were almost there (back in 1982) - I'll give them that, but they soon fell into standard thrash, as far as I know.
This is true, of course - and the whole scene was not about one band.
But one band became one of the biggest bands in the world, never mind THE biggest metal act ever - and also the band that got metal into non-metal fans living rooms. Back in 1988, most people seemed to avoid metal like the plague, except rabid metal fans - it was like Marmite.
Then, following Metallica's appearance on MTV, playing "One", metal was suddenly everywhere, even the most hated form of it - the dreaded Thrash Metal - it really kicked off in the early '90s, following the Black album.
Iron Maiden were the spearleaders of the NWoBHM, bringing metal to new heights of popularity, but Metallica brought it to previously unimaginable heights, and with music that, until the Black Album, was uncompromisingly Progressive in approach more than style.
Anyone can write a standard song with twiddly bits, if they sit down for months and learn the twiddly bits.
Not everyone can write a truly Progressive piece of rock music - that takes real art.
Maiden's and Priest's first two albums were in the right sort of vein - pity neither continued like that!
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 32844 |
Posted: July 11 2009 at 19:43 |
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Thanks! That all sounds very reasonable to me, Cert. Well explained, and I certainly find myself agreeing with you based on the all too little that I do know.
Incidentally, I should have said that "I've read that Watchtower.." since I'm not that familiar with the band's work. I'm really quite ignorant about metal, save early bands (I have been exploring quite a few avant metal-oriented/ influenced bands over the last few years, though). It just seemed very far-fetched to me that without Metallica prog metal probably would not exist. Edited by Logan - July 11 2009 at 19:47 |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: July 12 2009 at 03:15 |
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Exodus - Bonded by Blood
Exodus - Lessons in Violence (included on Speed Kills)
From Exodus' debut, released in 1985 - the music is very similar to that on Kill 'Em All - but the songs are dominated by one particular riff, which essentially remains unmodified. That said, the other riffs in the song are derivative of the main one - but there's not nearly as much variety as there is in Whiplash or Metal Militia (links posted above), both of which songs are called to mind. Even the solos sound a bit like Kirk's in "Whiplash".
In "Lessons in Vioence", the overarching style that Metallica forged on Kill 'Em All, with multi-part instrumental bridge can be easily heard - but "Bonded By Blood" as an album is much less sophisticated than "Ride The Lightning".
Watchtower - "Energetic Dissassembly"
Watchtower - "Asylum"
Break Watchtower's music down into its component sections and what you seem to have is a LOT of very complicated ideas.
This is not the same as complex - there is next to no complexity in the music, as everything follows or hinges off the main guitar. The vocal melody is non-existent, like the flow from idea to idea. "Asylum" has some twisted logic to it, but not so much "Energetic Dissassembly" - or much of the other music on the album, which is technical for the sake of being technical, on the whole.
It's not all like that, of course - there are some real flashes of inspiration, but that's the exception rather than the rule.
It's a good and innovative idea to produce technical sounding heavy metal, especially if you can pull off all of those techniques - but that's not what Prog is about. It's what metal is about - only rather than turning up the volume, increasing the speeed or citing classical music, these guys increased the amount of technical ability required to play the music.
Prog, in the sense Keith Emerson cites, isn't so much about having lots and lots of ideas, but more that you can take a group of ideas and "play" with them - which Metallica did. If you've ever tried to play anything Metallica wrote in their early days, you'll realise that it's technically fairly demanding too, because this was another of Metallica's remits!
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Alberto Muñoz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 26 2006 Location: Mexico Status: Offline Points: 3577 |
Posted: July 13 2009 at 14:20 |
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Agree with you in this one i always though that the first two Maiden albums were ahead of his time.
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mr.cub
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 06 2009 Location: Lexington, VA Status: Offline Points: 971 |
Posted: July 14 2009 at 13:35 |
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Am I Evil??? Yes I am!!!
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: July 14 2009 at 14:04 |
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Do you wonder what Diamond Head could have sounded like with a better drummer ?
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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angelmk
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 22 2006 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 1955 |
Posted: July 14 2009 at 16:12 |
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20 pages for Metallica are waist of time .. it is unnecessary .. IMO Metallica shouldnt be included in the PA, but who am i to jugde .. and Prog related is very questionable category..
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mr.cub
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 06 2009 Location: Lexington, VA Status: Offline Points: 971 |
Posted: July 14 2009 at 16:29 |
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Usually I'm not a big on Lars, but he really takes that song to a whole other level
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: July 14 2009 at 16:42 |
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If you have a more sensible suggestion then please feel free to post here again.
Edited by Certif1ed - July 15 2009 at 02:17 |
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Metallica ?
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rogerthat wrote: