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ModernRocker79 View Drop Down
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Points: 62 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Progressive Pop a new category
    Posted: November 10 2008 at 10:09

 Should there be a category for this on Progarchives. Bands that was progressive but where combining elements of pop and rock? This could include bands like The Beatles, Beach Boys some Byrd’s, Supertramp, ELO, Queen, and other bands. There is already a similar category for Avant-pop. This could help separate this from bands like King Crimson with the more pop orientated progressive acts. Just a suggestion.

 
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Luke. J View Drop Down
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Points: 380 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2008 at 10:39

We have Crossover Prog, which has in its definition that it would be a term for progressive music crossing pop music. Peter Gabriel and Manfred Mann's Earth Band are probably best examples. Prog Related should also be an ideal fit for bands who slightly touched prog, but never evolved their sound in this direction. Never have I seen "Avant-pop" around here and absolutely have no idea what this might be. Avant-Garde/RIO shall be enough.

Progarchives had Eclectic Prog and Crossover Prog put together as "Art Rock" but decided seperating because of the issue you are speaking of. To me, this problem had been solved that time..

Oh, and before I forget: I see you are new here, so.. a huge welcome!
..
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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2008 at 10:45
As Luke said, there is already the Crossover category for most of that, as well as Prog-Related.

BTW: Welcome to PA!
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Points: 62 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2008 at 11:58
Originally posted by Luke. J Luke. J wrote:

We have Crossover Prog, which has in its definition that it would be a term for progressive music crossing pop music. Peter Gabriel and Manfred Mann's Earth Band are probably best examples. Prog Related should also be an ideal fit for bands who slightly touched prog, but never evolved their sound in this direction. Never have I seen "Avant-pop" around here and absolutely have no idea what this might be. Avant-Garde/RIO shall be enough.

Progarchives had Eclectic Prog and Crossover Prog put together as "Art Rock" but decided seperating because of the issue you are speaking of. To me, this problem had been solved that time..

Oh, and before I forget: I see you are new here, so.. a huge welcome!
..
 

Avant-pop refers to music that employs conventional pop idioms -- engaging melodies and harmonies, a straightforward verse-bridge-chorus structure, accessible hooks and changes things up by putting an exotic, unpredictable spin on things. This can be accomplished through the addition of unexpected and unconventional instrumentation, tape effects and electronic instruments, studio trickery, stylistic curveballs, or any other wacky innovation an artist can dream up. When done right, this approach creates a pleasing and exciting tension between the catchy and the dissonant. The first real instances of avant-pop can probably be found in the Beatles and Beach Boys' warring experimental opuses of the late '60s. Brian Eno and David Bowie's mid '70s albums also fall into this category. More recent examples include the catchy left-field gems

 
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Points: 2815 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2008 at 14:01
We already had such a sub-genre. It was eliminated a couple of years ago, shortly before the Art-RocK revamping.
Bigger on the inside.
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Points: 24440 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2008 at 14:07
Originally posted by Kotro Kotro wrote:

We already had such a sub-genre. It was eliminated a couple of years ago, shortly before the Art-RocK revamping.


Please refresh my memory, because I can't for the life of me remember  the existence of any Progressive Pop subgenre since I've been here (almost 3 and a half years)....

And yes, Xover is the closest thing to 'avant-pop' you will find here... Have a look at the band list, and you will find many of those you mentioned in your original post. Welcome to PA, btw!Smile
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2008 at 14:31
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Originally posted by Kotro Kotro wrote:

We already had such a sub-genre. It was eliminated a couple of years ago, shortly before the Art-RocK revamping.


Please refresh my memory, because I can't for the life of me remember  the existence of any Progressive Pop subgenre since I've been here (almost 3 and a half years)....

And yes, Xover is the closest thing to 'avant-pop' you will find here... Have a look at the band list, and you will find many of those you mentioned in your original post. Welcome to PA, btw!Smile
Got me there too - I've been through the Wayback Machine and can find no evidence of Avant Pop or Progressive Pop as a specific subgenre on the PA. Confused
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Points: 2815 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2008 at 15:54
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Originally posted by Kotro Kotro wrote:

We already had such a sub-genre. It was eliminated a couple of years ago, shortly before the Art-RocK revamping.


Please refresh my memory, because I can't for the life of me remember  the existence of any Progressive Pop subgenre since I've been here (almost 3 and a half years)....

Got me there too - I've been through the Wayback Machine and can find no evidence of Avant Pop or Progressive Pop as a specific subgenre on the PA. Confused
 
Here you go, goldfish:
 
 
 
 
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2008 at 16:07
Thanks Approve
 
 
/edit: Ah, I see... Progressive Pop was simply renamed Prog-Related ... so only the name was eliminated, not the subgenre  Wink


Edited by Dean - November 10 2008 at 16:29
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2008 at 16:22
Originally posted by ModernRocker79 ModernRocker79 wrote:

Originally posted by Luke. J Luke. J wrote:

We have Crossover Prog, which has in its definition that it would be a term for progressive music crossing pop music. Peter Gabriel and Manfred Mann's Earth Band are probably best examples. Prog Related should also be an ideal fit for bands who slightly touched prog, but never evolved their sound in this direction. Never have I seen "Avant-pop" around here and absolutely have no idea what this might be. Avant-Garde/RIO shall be enough.

Progarchives had Eclectic Prog and Crossover Prog put together as "Art Rock" but decided seperating because of the issue you are speaking of. To me, this problem had been solved that time..

Oh, and before I forget: I see you are new here, so.. a huge welcome!
..
 

Avant-pop refers to music that employs conventional pop idioms -- engaging melodies and harmonies, a straightforward verse-bridge-chorus structure, accessible hooks and changes things up by putting an exotic, unpredictable spin on things. This can be accomplished through the addition of unexpected and unconventional instrumentation, tape effects and electronic instruments, studio trickery, stylistic curveballs, or any other wacky innovation an artist can dream up. When done right, this approach creates a pleasing and exciting tension between the catchy and the dissonant. The first real instances of avant-pop can probably be found in the Beatles and Beach Boys' warring experimental opuses of the late '60s. Brian Eno and David Bowie's mid '70s albums also fall into this category. More recent examples include the catchy left-field gems

We have some of the bands listed in that Wiki entry here on the PA. For example the Beatles reside in Proto Prog, Bowie in Related, Eno in Electronic and Deerhoof in Crossover. As already noted, in the main the majority of Progressive Pop bands are contained in either Prog-Related or Crossover Prog since these two subgenres allow us to differentiate between those bands that are 100% Progressive and those that are not. It is not our intention (or goal) to list every nearly-prog band in the world, so many of the other bands listed in that Wiki article (for example) would not be listed here.
 
For this site I feel the "Avant" tag would imply a connection with Avant-Prog, which it obviously does not have. 
 


Edited by Dean - November 10 2008 at 16:24
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timothy leary View Drop Down
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Points: 5319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2008 at 18:57
So why would Dave Bainbridge`s "veil of gossamer be crossover instead of prog folk?
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2008 at 19:20
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

So why would Dave Bainbridge`s "veil of gossamer be crossover instead of prog folk?
search me - before my time - he was originally added to Art Rock and put into Xover after the genre-split.
 
Reading the Biograph, my guess is the "Although this may sound borderline 'New Age', the reader shouldn't expect an easy listening here, as Bainbridge often breaks through the pastoral atmosphere with some highly progressive rockers – shades of CAMEL's "Harbour of Tears" and IRIS' "Crossing the Desert" come to mind." was deemed unsuitable for Prog-Folk at the time.
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Points: 5319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2008 at 19:37
just seems out of place in crossover but at least he is on the site, fine album
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Points: 1698 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2008 at 19:57
This is sort of related to the discussion, so I thought I'd ask it here. It may be because I'm kind of new here,  but people seem to be talking about Xover and Art Rock as if they are categories in the archives, and I haven't seen anything about them other than in the forums, when somebody says "They should just be put in Art-rock" or something like that.
 
What's the deal with those?

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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2008 at 20:09

Xover is short for Crossover Prog and can be found here: http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=3

Art Rock is the collective name for three subgenre's here: Eclectic Prog, Heavy Prog and Crossover Prog and at one time these three subgenres were in one big subgenre called (you guessed it) Art Rock before we split them into three more easily managed subgenres.
 
We chose to lose the term Art Rock from our genre names because (outside the PA) it also includes artists that were not Progressive Rock. Some of these non-Prog Art Rock artists can be found in Prog Related category, while others are not sufficiently related to Prog to be included.
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Points: 62 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2008 at 20:33

 I don't entirely agree with Prograrchives but how is Abbey Road starting to "I Want You (She So Heavy) to the end of Abbey Road not considered what I will say is Progressive Pop or your definition of pop and Progressive. The Beatles are an interesting case because they seem to do the same thing with avant and pop like "Tomorrow Never Knows" and "I am the Walrus”.  I can’t find another group who quite fit this bill.

I think Supertramp, Styx, ELO, later Geneses and Queen fit the Progressive Pop category.  I think there should be Progressive Rock with Progressive Folk, Progressive Psychedelic, Proto-Prog and Progressive Pop as major subgenres. There seems to be so many categories it’s sort of confusing for someone new like me. Indie music is separated from Indie Rock and Indie Music. Just a idea.

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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2008 at 20:54
Originally posted by ModernRocker79 ModernRocker79 wrote:

 I don't entirely agree with Prograrchives but how is Abbey Road starting to "I Want You (She So Heavy) to the end of Abbey Road not considered what I will say is Progressive Pop or your definition of pop and Progressive. The Beatles are an interesting case because they seem to do the same thing with avant and pop like "Tomorrow Never Knows" and "I am the Walrus”.  I can’t find another group who quite fit this bill.

Okay.. Yep all those tracks are Progressive Pop -  no denying that. Unfortunately the Beatles never recorded an entire album of that style of music - even at their most experimental, the bulk of each album was straight Pop songs. Hence we cannot and will not include them into a 100% Progressive category here. Also it is far more meaningful to the history of Progressive Rock for The Beatles to be placed in their rightful position of being one of the influential bands that lead to the development of Pop and Rock music into the genre we now call Prog.

Originally posted by ModernRocker79 ModernRocker79 wrote:

I think Supertramp, Styx, ELO, later Geneses and Queen fit the Progressive Pop category.  I think there should be Progressive Rock with Progressive Folk, Progressive Psychedelic, Proto-Prog and Progressive Pop as major subgenres. There seems to be so many categories it’s sort of confusing for someone new like me. Indie music is separated from Indie Rock and Indie Music. Just a idea.

I

Those bands can be described as Progressive Pop (except Genesis - their Pop output was never Prog), we choose not to.
 
We divide Progressive Rock into sub categories for convenience and to make finding similar bands easier.
 
Your list is fine for you, since it obviously is limited to what interests you and therefore what you believe to be Prog. But it excludes styles of music that would not fit into your categories, such as Jazz-Rock/Fusion, Canterbury, Zeuhl, Indo/Raga, Electronic, Krautrock and Post/Math Rock as well as three categories of Metal music we also consider to be Progressive.
 
 
Indie music is also subdivided into many smaller sub-categories, sometimes by musical style, but often by geographic location. I won't bother listing them here because we are not an Indie site Wink


Edited by Dean - November 10 2008 at 21:04
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Points: 62 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2008 at 22:02
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by ModernRocker79 ModernRocker79 wrote:

 I don't entirely agree with Prograrchives but how is Abbey Road starting to "I Want You (She So Heavy) to the end of Abbey Road not considered what I will say is Progressive Pop or your definition of pop and Progressive. The Beatles are an interesting case because they seem to do the same thing with avant and pop like "Tomorrow Never Knows" and "I am the Walrus”.  I can’t find another group who quite fit this bill.

Okay.. Yep all those tracks are Progressive Pop -  no denying that. Unfortunately the Beatles never recorded an entire album of that style of music - even at their most experimental, the bulk of each album was straight Pop songs. Hence we cannot and will not include them into a 100% Progressive category here. Also it is far more meaningful to the history of Progressive Rock for The Beatles to be placed in their rightful position of being one of the influential bands that lead to the development of Pop and Rock music into the genre we now call Prog.

Originally posted by ModernRocker79 ModernRocker79 wrote:

I think Supertramp, Styx, ELO, later Geneses and Queen fit the Progressive Pop category.  I think there should be Progressive Rock with Progressive Folk, Progressive Psychedelic, Proto-Prog and Progressive Pop as major subgenres. There seems to be so many categories it’s sort of confusing for someone new like me. Indie music is separated from Indie Rock and Indie Music. Just a idea.

I

Those bands can be described as Progressive Pop (except Genesis - their Pop output was never Prog), we choose not to.
 
We divide Progressive Rock into sub categories for convenience and to make finding similar bands easier.
 
Your list is fine for you, since it obviously is limited to what interests you and therefore what you believe to be Prog. But it excludes styles of music that would not fit into your categories, such as Jazz-Rock/Fusion, Canterbury, Zeuhl, Indo/Raga, Electronic, Krautrock and Post/Math Rock as well as three categories of Metal music we also consider to be Progressive.
 
 
Indie music is also subdivided into many smaller sub-categories, sometimes by musical style, but often by geographic location. I won't bother listing them here because we are not an Indie site Wink
 
 
 
 Ok thanks for hearing me out.  At least we agree on most things especially side two of Abbey Road.
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Points: 3449 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2008 at 23:19
Broken record here, but I can't resist the opportunity to put in yet another plug for XTC, which are prog-pop if it ever existed Big smile
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Points: 1698 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2008 at 00:09

Ever since I've been familiar with both the Beatles and progressive music, I've always thought that the Beatles were the only thing I could possibly call progressive pop. I mean, sure you could always sing along to their music, but it definetely had a higher level of creativity than most bands.

Of course, I've expanded my listening and decided prog-related is fine and crossover prog works too for some bands.

By the way, Dean, thanks for the help on that. Nice to know stuff like that.

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