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Atavachron View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: News of the day
    Posted: June 28 2013 at 17:11
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes

^Um....I think he was being sarcastic.

Of course I was, but I do like that Tim Gunn meme

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Post Options Post Options   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2013 at 07:52
Speaking of Snowden and NSA spying and all that jazz - it seems quite stylish these days to blame Obama for all that.  But I don't think this is right, for three reasons:
1) He didn't put into place the policies that led us to this point - that was another president....one known by the letter "W".
2) When this thing blew up after the Snowden leak, one of the things Obama said was: "I welcome this debate" - he WANTS to change this.  And:
3) I don't think the president is our problem.  I think these guys are:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/28/nsa-bills_n_3516928.html
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Argonaught Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2013 at 11:15
 
Originally posted by dtguitarfan

He didn't put into place the policies that led us to this point - that was another president....one known by the letter "W".


Oh, I see .. 'cause before W there wasn't such thing as "government snooping" .. or torture .. or invasion of other countries w/o casus belli or Congressional approval ..  Bush invented these. 


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Post Options Post Options   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2013 at 11:18
Originally posted by Argonaught

 
Originally posted by dtguitarfan

He didn't put into place the policies that led us to this point - that was another president....one known by the letter "W".

Oh, I see .. 'cause before W there wasn't such thing as "government snooping" .. or torture .. or invasion of other countries w/o casus belli or Congressional approval ..  Bush invented these. 


Things definitely got worse with W.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2013 at 11:26
^ The point I'm making is this: people who don't like Obama love to say to the people that voted for him that he's just Bush Jr.   But the problem with this view is that Obama didn't write most of the policies the "Bush Jr." people take issue with.   He just hasn't had an opportunity to overturn them.   He got a lot done in his first two years, and then the toddler- like temper-tantrum throwing GOP took the house and some Senate seats back, and we haven't been able to get anything done in our government since.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote King of Loss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2013 at 14:20
Originally posted by dtguitarfan

^ The point I'm making is this: people who don't like Obama love to say to the people that voted for him that he's just Bush Jr.   But the problem with this view is that Obama didn't write most of the policies the "Bush Jr." people take issue with.   He just hasn't had an opportunity to overturn them.   He got a lot done in his first two years, and then the toddler- like temper-tantrum throwing GOP took the house and some Senate seats back, and we haven't been able to get anything done in our government since.

No, his foreign policy has been a lot worse than Bush's policies. At least Bush was straight-forward about what his policies were. The Obama administration has completely turned most of the Middle East into a Salafist whore-house.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2013 at 15:44
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ambient Hurricanes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2013 at 15:45
Originally posted by dtguitarfan

Speaking of Snowden and NSA spying and all that jazz - it seems quite stylish these days to blame Obama for all that.  But I don't think this is right, for three reasons:
1) He didn't put into place the policies that led us to this point - that was another president....one known by the letter "W".
2) When this thing blew up after the Snowden leak, one of the things Obama said was: "I welcome this debate" - he WANTS to change this.  And:
3) I don't think the president is our problem.  I think these guys are:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/28/nsa-bills_n_3516928.html


Obama is just part of the problem.  The entire system is corrupt, and most of our legislators, republican and democrat, have both feet firmly planted in the Orwellian surveillance camp.  You can't let Bush or Obama or anyone who was responsible for this off the hook.  While I agree that it is unfair to lay all the blame on the president, you cannot deny that the problem has gotten worse under his administration, not better.  Snowden himself said that he had hope for positive change when Obama took office but that the surveillance was amped up instead. 

Who exactly are you referring to in the article?  Congress in general?  The people proposing bills to limit the NSA's powers?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote King of Loss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2013 at 15:55
Originally posted by The T

Damn, my country made it to the Huffington Post first page and to the BidenPost mouth

And I applaud them for having the courage... I hope they don't relent.Clap


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Post Options Post Options   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2013 at 16:33
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes



Who exactly are you referring to in the article?  Congress in general? 

YES.  The majority half, to be more precise. 

Limit your disbelief for a second and hear me out.  Presidents and Senators have to appeal to a broader range of people in order to be elected.  They can't go way off the deep end and become an extreme left or right winger, or they simply will not be able to get the majority of the vote.  Yes, to a certain degree, if you're running for senate in a Red state you can get away with being more conservative, but you still can't go too far or you won't get it.  CONGRESS, however, is elected by district.  And the districts are drawn by the government of their state.  And if you look into it with an open mind, you'll see that what happened after Obama was elected is that the Republican party gerrymandered the f**k out of states like Ohio, where even though Democrats made up the majority of the vote of the state overall, they ended up with 11 Republicans and 2 Democrats elected to the House.  So, because of this state, House Republicans don't worry about pushing things too far.  In fact, they know that if they want to win their primaries, they've got to appeal to the "base" - the most passionate people of the party (read: the craziest).  So yes, I blame the House Republicans for most of our problems.  And you if you really pay attention to politics (I read the politics pages EVERY DAMN DAY), you'll see that everything you WANT to happen in our government is being blocked...by the House.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2013 at 16:59
^I think the problem Geoff is that you read politics EVERY DAMN DAY as you say.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ambient Hurricanes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2013 at 17:05
^I agree that most of the republicans in congress are dishonest charlatans who are hungry for power and couldn't care less about the American people.  But I think the same of the democrats.  We were talking about Snowden, so just consider the reaction of both house and senate to the leaks: both republicans and democrats are unwilling to admit that the government is wrong.  Of course, there are a few brave legislators on both sides who are willing to take a stand against the blatant corruption and disregard for freedom present in our security system.  But it's both sides who are trying to justify this, both sides that are oppressing the American people. 

And please give me some examples of good legislation that is being blocked by the House. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2013 at 17:19
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes

^I agree that most of the republicans in congress are dishonest charlatans who are hungry for power and couldn't care less about the American people.  But I think the same of the democrats.

No, now, see, if you followed politics like I do, you'd know about the Hastert rule.  What this basically means is that because the Democrats are not currently the majority in Congress, they don't really do anything.  They sit around on their butts waiting for the stupid Republicans to finally do something and when the Republicans finally agree on a bill (which doesn't happen much these days), it gets all of the Republican votes (or nearly) and even if the Democrats are 100% united against it, the bill still passes.  Then it goes to the Senate where it gets shot down by the Democratic majority because it was a stupid bill to begin with.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2013 at 17:30
Originally posted by The T

^I think the problem Geoff is that you read politics EVERY DAMN DAY as you say.

No, I think the problem is that no matter how much research I do, idiots keep trying to tell me I'm mistaken.  You can't ever explain to anyone why they're wrong these days, no matter how much fact you have to back you up.  Which is why I often take to just giving an abbreviated version of the argument these days and say things like "you're just going to say that everything I say is a lie anyways."
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ambient Hurricanes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2013 at 17:43
Originally posted by dtguitarfan

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes

^I agree that most of the republicans in congress are dishonest charlatans who are hungry for power and couldn't care less about the American people.  But I think the same of the democrats.

No, now, see, if you followed politics like I do, you'd know about the Hastert rule.  What this basically means is that because the Democrats are not currently the majority in Congress, they don't really do anything.  They sit around on their butts waiting for the stupid Republicans to finally do something and when the Republicans finally agree on a bill (which doesn't happen much these days), it gets all of the Republican votes (or nearly) and even if the Democrats are 100% united against it, the bill still passes.  Then it goes to the Senate where it gets shot down by the Democratic majority because it was a stupid bill to begin with.


It was just as bad when the Democrats had the majority.  It's just as bad in the Senate, where they have the majority now.  The fact that the republicans do a terrible job when they have the majority does not prove that the democrats are any better.

Are you going to answer the question in my previous post, by the way?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2013 at 17:54
Originally posted by dtguitarfan


Originally posted by The T

^I think the problem Geoff is that you read politics EVERY DAMN DAY as you say.
No, I think the problem is that no matter how much research I do, idiots keep trying to tell me I'm mistaken.  You can't ever explain to anyone why they're wrong these days, no matter how much fact you have to back you up.  Which is why I often take to just giving an abbreviated version of the argument these days and say things like "you're just going to say that everything I say is a lie anyways."
Did you just call people here "idiots"? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you probably didn't. Have you happened to think that if you have problems having people argue with you is because of the ultra-political way you argue?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2013 at 18:31
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes


Originally posted by dtguitarfan


Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes

^I agree that most of the republicans in congress are dishonest charlatans who are hungry for power and couldn't care less about the American people.  But I think the same of the democrats.
No, now, see, if you followed politics like I do, you'd know about the Hastert rule.  What this basically means is that because the Democrats are not currently the majority in Congress, they don't really do anything.  They sit around on their butts waiting for the stupid Republicans to finally do something and when the Republicans finally agree on a bill (which doesn't happen much these days), it gets all of the Republican votes (or nearly) and even if the Democrats are 100% united against it, the bill still passes.  Then it goes to the Senate where it gets shot down by the Democratic majority because it was a stupid bill to begin with.
It was just as bad when the Democrats had the majority.  It's just as bad in the Senate, where they have the majority now.  The fact that the republicans do a terrible job when they have the majority does not prove that the democrats are any better.Are you going to answer the question in my previous post, by the way?

No, it's not "just as bad" - the Senate during Obama's presidency holds the record for most filibusters and the last congress was the least productive in history.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote King of Loss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2013 at 18:50
Can you just admit that both parties are about 99% identical in terms of policies?


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Post Options Post Options   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2013 at 18:58
Originally posted by The T

Originally posted by dtguitarfan


Originally posted by The T

^I think the problem Geoff is that you read politics EVERY DAMN DAY as you say.
No, I think the problem is that no matter how much research I do, idiots keep trying to tell me I'm mistaken.  You can't ever explain to anyone why they're wrong these days, no matter how much fact you have to back you up.  Which is why I often take to just giving an abbreviated version of the argument these days and say things like "you're just going to say that everything I say is a lie anyways."
Did you just call people here "idiots"? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you probably didn't. Have you happened to think that if you have problems having people argue with you is because of the ultra-political way you argue?

I didn't specify who I was calling an idiot.  But there are idiots here.  Don't think the humor of the situation was lost on me when I had been arguing the merits of a universal healthcare system and was being told how wrong I was, and then someone from a country with a universal health care system joins in and says how great things are.  That's the difference between me and the very vocal libertarians on this forum - what I think America should do is based on reality.  I say "I think we should do A", and then I point to a long list of countries that HAVE in fact been putting the very same strategy or something quite like it in place for a long time with very good success stories.  The very vocal libertarians around here say "I think we should do this thing that has never been done ever before and I have no scientific proof it will actually work - just trust me, I'm enlightened and you just don't see the light yet!"  But my answer to that line of reasoning is that what you are suggesting is what we have already in fact been doing, just in a more extreme dose.  So if what we have already been doing has gotten us into a mess, why would we think taking a more extreme dose would fix things?  It's idiotic, I tell you!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote dtguitarfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 29 2013 at 19:00
Originally posted by King of Loss

Can you just admit that both parties are about 99% identical in terms of policies?

No, because they're not.

Now, there are some areas where they are frustratingly similar.  But often when people say things like, say, both Democrats and Republicans support a system that has made the USA the highest in prison population, well I say that you have to realize there's no simple answer to this problem.  So you have to look at it as a bunch of smaller pieces of the puzzle that might eventually lead to the solution - one small piece being the legalization of marijuana.  So then you look at the two parties and say - which one is supporting the legalization of marijuana, and which is saying it should remain an offense that results in imprisonment?  Hmm?
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