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paganinio 
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 Topic: Ever see the word "progressive" used incorrectly?
Posted: June 09 2009 at 12:43 |
I just saw a user (not on this site) say that "xxx band is progressive psychedelia". Actually he's talking about a gothic rock band. Maybe that was an extreme example, but I do often see people use the word "progressive" to describe things that aren't prog at all. Other examples I saw: 1. "Few people know that Andy Warhol was also a progressive music fan, and that's why he created The Velvet Underground." 2. "This is the first time when MMORPG games meet progressive rock. The music is based on the very popular Guitar Pop genre, and it sounds fresh and natural."
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Logan
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 12:56 |
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Progressive music need not refer to Prog (Progressive Rock) -- it can be any music that is deemed progressive, or experimental, in nature. In fact, progressive (adjective) rock need not be considered Progressive Rock (noun).Not all Prog is truly progressive, but that doesn't stop it being Prog in regards to stylistic qualities, and associations with a Prog movement
Edited by Logan - June 09 2009 at 12:58
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Evolver
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 13:02 |
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A few years back, my Comcast cable TV had a music channel it called "progressive". There was nothing progressive about it. At best, it was slightly alternative. There is nothing progressive about Hootie & The Blowfish, Sonic Youth...
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Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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Raff
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 13:10 |
 paganinio wrote:
I just saw a user (not on this site) say that "xxx band is progressive psychedelia". Actually he's talking about a gothic rock band. Maybe that was an extreme example, but I do often see people use the word "progressive" to describe things that aren't prog at all. Other examples I saw: 1. "Few people know that Andy Warhol was also a progressive music fan, and that's why he created The Velvet Underground." 2. "This is the first time when MMORPG games meet progressive rock. The music is based on the very popular Guitar Pop genre, and it sounds fresh and natural." |
As Logan said before me, the bolded quote is an example of how far too many people think that prog = progressive MUSIC. Though The Velvet Underground may not have been prog (though many people would like to see them here for their influence on Krautrock), they sure were a very progressive act, so there is no misuse of the word at all.
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nightlamp
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 13:18 |
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The "progressive" label is tossed around rather liberally at Prog Archives imho, so why not anywhere else? If Dead Can Dance can be progressive, why can't another gothic rock band?
Regarding the Warhol example: in the mid-1960s, "progressive rock" hadn't yet become its own rock subgenre - was simply another descriptor for psychedelic, experimental rock music.
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 13:20 |
Let's not get started on Flo and vehicle insurance... 
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Evolver
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 13:43 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Let's not get started on Flo and vehicle insurance... |
Did Eddie retire, or just get replaced? 
Edited by Evolver - June 09 2009 at 13:43
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Alitare
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 13:51 |
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No use use the word is a misuse, as all things progress subjectively in some fashion
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Rocktopus
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 14:06 |
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Paganinio seem to have misunderstood the term himself, but I've seen progressive used incorrectly many times about Flower Kings, Symphony X, Dream Theater etc.
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Over land and under ashes
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Don't believe in me
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moshkito
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 14:30 |
Hi,
Yeah ...
It is done HERE on this very board!
And sometimes I think that too many folks don't even know the meaning of the word "prog" since they are not even listening to enough things that are "prog" ... the objectivity of the word disappears when you stop at top ten bands!
But of course ... everyone here will stand up for their heroes! Because their heroes would never be not that perfect!
For the record ... Andy Warhol did not create "The Velvet Underground" ... there is no relation whatsoever! But the art scene around the time had a lot of these people near enough each other ... that they knew how to help each other and help their scene "make it" ... personally, I don't think that Lou Reed cared for Andy that much ... as he could be awfully vain and Lou Reed is not that type and neither was ANY of the music that band had.
Another one .... "The music is based on the very popular Guitar Pop genre ... " ... not stated 100 % accurately but in a sense it is true and came from the pop music in radio where the likes of Winchester Cathedral and otehr idiotic songs came out as if they were representatives of some kind of psychedelic introspective trip ... it developed from there into a lot more than just a pop song, and credit to that would have to go to NY, London and Paris, three cities that are well known for their experimental arts and music ... and they expanded the realm of the "song" into a lot more ... in London we ended up with the Canterburians and the Harvest families ... in Paris with the rock bands taking Jacques Brel even further (Ange and several others) and in NY, you can easily bring up a Velvet Underground and some other bands ... and basically all of these ... REJECTED ... not only the "psychedelic" theme, but also the fact that they were not being given any credit for creating literary/artistic works at the time ... of which they were certainly involved and a part of in the first place!
Pop music was a fad ... it ended quickly when you went to SF with flowers in your hair and got raped! And we also mean ideas that disrespect one's musical knowledge and intelligence in favor of "drugs" and an imaginary scene and ideal that never was.
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stonebeard
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 14:36 |
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Yes, when applied to any form of music
No wait. "Progressive" is an almost completely meaningless term that is only used to be derogatory to non-progressive things.
So, I say that the only reasonable way to use it, to denote they style of music that has been called progressive rock in the past (70s symphonic, mainly) is actually the incorrect way of using it, since it only denotes style and does not actually imply the music is progressing.
Summary:
"Progressive" in the literal sense = completely meaningless elitist term
"Progressive" as a historic genre of music, disregarding whether it is literally progressive music = the only way to use the term without being pompous and elitist.
Edited by stonebeard - June 09 2009 at 14:44
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crimson87
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 14:42 |
Rocktopus wrote:
Paganinio seem to have misunderstood the term himself, but I've seen progressive used incorrectly many times about Flower Kings, Symphony X, Dream Theater etc. |
You gotta love that line
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moshkito
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 14:47 |
HI,
Stonebeard ...
That is perfect ... I could not have done as well myself ... with only one comment ... how "warhol'ian" of you ... but at least you were more original than the soup cans ...
My preference still is ... that we not use the term for a "type or style" of music ... no one, goes around saying that they want to listen to Romantic and Nationalistic music ... when they want to hear Beethoven or Tchaikovsky ... and why the hell would anyone want to be called "progressive" ... specially when one of the very heroes we mention denumks that idea and then some (Robert Fripp) ... and is a well known and studied "actor" with a guitar in his hand ... it's almost like saying that the man is not educated enough and studious enough, that he could never do anything different ... or apply a baroque playing style to his electric guitar with some compression .. to make it sound weirder with Brian Eno in the background!
Some people are very good experiment'rs (is that a word?)
Edited by moshkito - June 09 2009 at 14:56
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KingCrimson250
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 15:13 |
Yeah, when Peter Gabriel wrote Back in NYC for TLLDOB and used the word "progressive" instead of "liberal" when he was trying to portray an American character 
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Logan
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 15:19 |
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I say that I listen to Romantic and Baroque compositions. Progressive is a meaningful term, though it can have different connotations. Progressive music is music that moves music forward and expands on a genre. It can move a genre forward (expand the frontiers) by looking backward through incorporating elements that are not typical of its genre -- by defying typical genre conventions. I think that the Renissance was pretty progressive (meands rebirth), but an important way that culture, society, science etc. was moved forward was by looking back to the past (classical era).
I prefer to think of Prog as more of an approach to making music, and movement than a particular style. It involves rock-based music that explores the potential of rock and expands it through not needing to follow typical rock genre conventions. A big way it did that is by drawing on other styles of music and bringing into the fold (hybridisation). Some people think that to be truly progressive you need to invent rather than innovate.
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Vibrationbaby
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 15:31 |
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We have the Progressive Conservative party in Canada. An oxyMORON if there ever was one. This word progressive has to be one of the most misused word in the English language. As for music genres I think the strangest label I`ve ever come across was someone describing the now defunct Norwegian band Haerskar`s music as progressive folk-metal.
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sealchan
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 16:13 |
For me progressive rock music is that music which takes you on a journey. It does so with lyrics or instrumental performance. Often the sense of journey comes from being removed from the conventional, sometimes it comes from length and/or complexity of a song. The idea is to take you out of the here and now and bring you someplace else. The song doesn't focus so much on emotion as it does on a more psychological center containing elements both alternate and less accepted by mainstream attitudes. The more that the lyrics AND the musical style AND the instruments and any other musical aspect strive to remove you from the norm, the more progressive a song is.
For me the progression of musical themes in a long, instrumental or instrumental section (such as a well-crafted solo or "jam" in the middle of a song) is the essence of progressive rock. So when Yes created the song "Starship Trooper" with its three sections which roll together and end with a great progressive jam, that is archetypal of what I think of as progressive rock. Perhaps In the Court of the Crimson King accomplishes the "progressive" musical type by being an album of exoticness and long solos and wanderings through places both quiet ("Moonchild"), disquieting ("21st Century Schizoid Man") and grand ("The Court of the Crimson King").
When Genesis created the songs "Firth of Fifth" and "The Cinema Show" you also get archetypal examples of the progressive rock song. I was just listening to "Sheep" by Pink Floyd and noting how the whole song goes back and forth in extended passages of surging forward then downshifting, then surging forward again while the lyrics are painting the perspective of the animal onto the experience of humanity.
And the most satisfying aspect of a progressive rock song for me is the climax that comes when the instruments play at their most energetic and the volume is the greatest and the mood is the most ecstatic or powerful. Then there is a sense of a progression to either a higher plane (Jungian perspective, lol) or some sort of emotional release (Freudian perspective, lol).
I guess another element of a great progressive song and one that defines what progressive rock means to me is that a certain theme is worked repeatedly on the instrument. That theme may encounter a few or a great many influences along the way but it comes out a bit stronger in the end. This is common in songs I think except that most pop songs and songs of other genres down build up to the final chorus so much as the final chorus concludes the song. The idea being that you start in one place and get somewhere else, somewhere better, somewhere clearer...and not just finish off your mood or idea with a brief instrumental ornamentation. So the flatter the "progression" of the song, the less progressive it is. Progressive rock takes you "higher" whether in a psychodelic sense, spiritual sense or other sense.
Anyway I am just trying to get at what I see the central characteristics of progressive rock to be and how a single song can best capture what that word means to me.
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The T
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 16:14 |
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Yes... when it's used as a synonym of "good".
Edited by The T - June 09 2009 at 16:15
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Alitare
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 16:28 |
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^Indeed. I also enjoy the idea that progressive is a "sound" or "style". As if things weren't entirely subjective, already.
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Certif1ed
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Posted: June 09 2009 at 16:38 |
If you're using it as an adjective, then it's relative and should be quantified.
There was a progressive music scene in the late 1960s that Warhol/Velvet Underground were part of - and it preceeded what we now call Progressive Rock, so this usage is correct.
One of the main points of progressive music to me is that it isn't a particular sound or stlye - or how could it be progressive?
Edited by Certif1ed - June 09 2009 at 16:38
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Ever see the word "progressive" used incorrectly?
