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Kati View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2013 at 18:46
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Never underestimate the zeal (and stupidity) of an over-enthusiastic fan who thinks they are doing a good turn for the artist.
 
 
True Dean, but it's hard to comprehend that one band has over 400 eager fans (unheard of in this perspective) that will sign up give really bad scores to albums that are in my opinion really good and certainly more deserving meanwhile giving them 5 scores. With this I mean to say it's hard enough to get anyone to click like buttom on songs or vids, just a click of a buttom nevermind having them coming in a constant flow, many to signing in giving 5 star and go rate other albums low. This to me is odd, that's all, I am not a musician have nothing to lose and just speaking my mind to what seems unfair to me. This said Anglagard band members are very nice people too besides being incredibly talented. I cannot blame them but have doubt's that it's their fans doing this, Honestly this doesn't seem logic or viable to me, really, seriously.


Edited by Kati - February 11 2013 at 18:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jplanet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2013 at 18:59
It's worth noting that Anglagard has no label, their latest is an independent release.

The only way a coordinated effort would work is if they hired a publicist or promotions company which in turn hired spammers to carry out specific promotional tasks. But that is expensive for a result as benign as an average rating on one single website...

Big labels do this sort of thing all the time, they buy Youtube views and "likes"....but those are actually very expensive tactics for such questionable results.

Also, the prog world is relatively small - if word ever got out that they resorted to such tactics, it would be a catastrophe for them.

Take a look at their one-star ratings - they come from people who also joined the site just to give a 5-star to some other release on the Top List. So, I think this phenomenon just happens to be a very popular way to abuse this site's ratings system.

Of course, each page view generates ad revenue, so there may be zero incentive to limit this from happening.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2013 at 19:12
Originally posted by jplanet jplanet wrote:

It's worth noting that Anglagard has no label, their latest is an independent release.

The only way a coordinated effort would work is if they hired a publicist or promotions company which in turn hired spammers to carry out specific promotional tasks. But that is expensive for a result as benign as an average rating on one single website...

Big labels do this sort of thing all the time, they buy Youtube views and "likes"....but those are actually very expensive tactics for such questionable results.

Also, the prog world is relatively small - if word ever got out that they resorted to such tactics, it would be a catastrophe for them.

Take a look at their one-star ratings - they come from people who also joined the site just to give a 5-star to some other release on the Top List. So, I think this phenomenon just happens to be a very popular way to abuse this site's ratings system.

Of course, each page view generates ad revenue, so there may be zero incentive to limit this from happening.
 
You are absolutely right jplanet,
I must say P.A. has this problem because it's a valuable site to be on the ratings count here and elsewhere, they do try to make it reputable no doubt also do try to combat this (Dean has so much patience, I would have strangled someone's neck by now lol), however it's tricky with a great album and P.A. do delete a lot of them, almost daily it's neverending also it is sometimes hard to distinguish the real from the dodgy ones, It would be so much easier with a crap band lolololol but I do agree, seen and witnessed too many times that there's something wrong although I don't know how P.A. could stop this from happening. Bad bands can easily get bad reviews from collabs to bring them down but Anglagard are good thus their reviews must be sincere too. Arghhhhh !!!!


Edited by Kati - February 11 2013 at 19:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2013 at 19:40
I know it's none of my business and my sincere apologies for sticking my nose, won't do it again but but but I tend to speak up in other people's defense if I think it's not fair, this said I have no idea how to solve it either because I know P.A. currently have their hands tight plus deleted too many fake ratings to Unhappy I just felt compelled to come to jplanet's defense because I too see the same as him. Awwww not fair to either bands and P.A. Admins bah  Disapprove

Edited by Kati - February 11 2013 at 19:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pianoman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2013 at 21:28
Though, like Dean has said in so many words before, in the grand scheme of life, it's not really anything to get upset about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2013 at 21:34
I think I have said everything most honestly what came to my mind and have nothing further to add while knowing I did not contribute to anything either Stern Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jplanet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2013 at 22:26
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

I think I have said everything most honestly what came to my mind and have nothing further to add while knowing I did not contribute to anything either Stern Smile


You most certainly did! You contributed fair-mindedness, sensitivity and appreciation.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jplanet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2013 at 22:40
Originally posted by pianoman pianoman wrote:

Though, like Dean has said in so many words before, in the grand scheme of life, it's not really anything to get upset about.


Of course, but that's a pretty high bar to set for wanting to improve something. I don't think something has to be upsetting to want to improve it - if it's obvious that a ratings system is prone to abuse as it stands, then suggestions can and should be made to make it work better. Otherwise, in the grand scheme of things, does progressive rock matter? The Earth and cosmos will continue without a blink if it dispappeared forever, but I think this site is a nice place that is maybe worth perfecting. Otherwise, why have topics dedicated to improving it if nothing will ever change? Then at least take down this part of the forum so there are no illusions of welcoming input...

Also, I create websites for a living, so I spend dozens of hours every week discussing how to make websites work better, so I just consider this discussion more of an extension of my job, rather than a reaction to something upsetting...

As a web programmer, I would make these comments:

- Amazon does not have problems like this with reviews and ratings, because people have to write their thoughts, and those comments are moderated so people can't leave irrelevant spam. PA already moderates reviews, so that is not a problem.

- To solve the problem of non-English speakers feeling left out, let them rate or write something in their own language that appears only on their own profile page, and doesn't contribute to the reviews ratings. They can feel free to share it with whoemever they please, and anyone reading a collaborator's profile can find it.

With the above solutions, you continue to get all the traffic and sense of participation form non-English speakers, all site visitors have more incentive to contribute valuable content, and they will still have a simple way of rating releases honestly for the sole purpose of showing their own tastes. Ratings spam gone forever, quality of site increases, very simple.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2013 at 12:19
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Never underestimate the zeal (and stupidity) of an over-enthusiastic fan who thinks they are doing a good turn for the artist.
 
 
True Dean, but it's hard to comprehend that one band has over 400 eager fans (unheard of in this perspective) that will sign up give really bad scores to albums that are in my opinion really good and certainly more deserving meanwhile giving them 5 scores. With this I mean to say it's hard enough to get anyone to click like buttom on songs or vids, just a click of a buttom nevermind having them coming in a constant flow, many to signing in giving 5 star and go rate other albums low. This to me is odd, that's all, I am not a musician have nothing to lose and just speaking my mind to what seems unfair to me. This said Anglagard band members are very nice people too besides being incredibly talented. I cannot blame them but have doubt's that it's their fans doing this, Honestly this doesn't seem logic or viable to me, really, seriously.
Feelings and intuition are not good enough - you cannot take something that you perceive to be a problem with half a dozen possibly bogus ratings and then extrapolate that to each of the 400+ ratings they have. It simply is an unfair accusation to make, especially when you insinuate that there is some covert conspiracy involving black-hatted boggy men. Anglagard has more than 400 fans - no one should doubt that - their very highly acclaimed first album has 900 ratings, their lesser known EP has 400, this album gaining 430 in 9 months is no great surprise, its release was one of the most anticipated of the past 12 months.
 
The silly thing is that if I analyse the data for Viljans Öga and remove the 36 ratings I believe to be bogus the average rating goes up from 4.34 to 4.35, which means the net result of all manipulation is that the average ratings for all albums is adversely affected, even those that some people firmly believe are being unfairly boosted. The reality is everyone suffers by an infinitesimally small amount, so even if we could wave a magic wand and make all the bogus ratings disappear it wouldn't change anything - every album's rating would go up by a very small percentage and the relative chart positions would move around a small amount but the overall effect would be unchanged.
 
 
 
So please, for the love of Prog and for Fripp's sake, forget about these rating-only scores - ignore them, deliberate rating manipulation is a futile game that achieves nothing of any significance. Reviews carry far more weight, reviews by collaborators carry even more.
 


Edited by Dean - February 12 2013 at 12:22


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jplanet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2013 at 15:33
Thank you for that data analysis, Dean, that is fantastic!

Yes, with that information, I would have to agree that the data is not sufficiently corrupted to warrant any measures against it. As a programmer, I can never disagree with things like logic and proof!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roland113 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2013 at 15:50
Yeah, that's a pretty stunning conclusion Dean.

If I could make a suggestion, we know this is going to come up again.  There may be merit to starting a new thread with the graph and associated explanation and making it sticky.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2013 at 17:31
Two more graphs - I posted this first one in the CZ two years ago and shows the ratings with time for four albums, one (the blue line) is from 1973 and three more that have been released since the PA was created. Since the older album is less likely to have been subjected to deliberate manipulation we can regard that as the control reference point.
I have divided the time-line into for separate regions:
A: These are the first few ratings of the album - generally these start at "5" since the first review/rating of any album is by a fan who thinks it is the bees-knees of all albums and will rate it high.
 
B: Shows the next 10-15 ratings where we see the largest "correction" of those initial high ratings, during this time the variations in average score will be erratic and unpredictable because the sample sizes are small and any rating that differs from the average significantly will have a large effect on the average. This is why albums with rating-counts below the site average are not included in the Top-100 calculations.
 
C: During this period (the next 30 or so ratings) the average starts to normalise towards its true value as more collaborators take notice of the album and the album has had time to "sink-in" with the listeners.
 
D: Can be regarded as the final "true value" of the album's rating - the sample population size is now large enough (>50) to normalise out small numbers of rogue ratings-without-review.
All albums follow this basic shape - high at the start, a little erratic for a while, then a moderate dip followed by a steady levelling-off - it does not matter which album you pick, they all follow this basic pattern. You can see this in the previous plot for Viljans Öga and you can see it in the one I put in another thread yesterday - high votes, followed by a mad bit, then a dip and a final settling. The overall trend is always down from a high start point - in all the albums I've looked at none have ever started low and got better.
 
I have observed this general behaviour in albums that have not been abused by deliberate rating-only manipulation, by albums hit by such abuse and in those same albums with the bogus ratings removed and this effect is always far more significant than any deliberate rating-only manipulation.
 
Now, albums do not show in any of our charts until they've recorded more than the average number of ratings for an album - this means that an album with only 1 rating will not suddenly top the charts with a "5" rating. A quick glance at the front page will tell you that our members have submitted 757,377 ratings for 39,143 albums which means that this average is approximately 19. If you look at the graph you will see that 19 ratings will put us more or less at the end of Region 'B', that is: after the really erratic changes in average rating but before the average rating has settled down to its 'final' value. This means that the album will enter the chart far higher up than its eventual resting place and then inexorably drop down the chart - and all albums do this - they enter high then as they get more ratings they will move down the chart - it's not abuse or manipulation, it's just what happens.
 
Final graph - the first 78 ratings for three 2012 albums (hopefully self-explanatory):


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2013 at 22:57
Ok it seems people changed their mind but I didn't! This is a discussion forum, I  should be free to speak my mind unless anything else was stipulated against the things I say or said?
Hug
P,S.Has  anyone brought crumpets? Shall I make some tea? Smilehugs


Edited by Kati - February 15 2013 at 22:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Argonaught Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2013 at 04:29
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:


P,S.Has  anyone brought crumpets? Shall I make some tea? Smilehugs

as in "thinking man's crumpets"? 
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2013 at 04:51
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Ok it seems people changed their mind but I didn't!
I'm not here to change people's minds - I've been on the Internet long enough to know that changing peoples' minds in a forum by the power of argument, opinion, evidence and fact is a rare event. All I try to change is perceptions, to encourage people to look at the evidence from more than one perspective and make more informed judgements and opinions based upon that evidence and how it is perceived.
 
We all know that rating-abuse and deliberate rating manipulation exists - we can see this evidence with our own eyes (as is frequently pointed out to me as if I was totally unaware of this fact). We also know that the average rating of an album will decrease as more ratings and reviews are posted - again we can see this evidence with our own eyes (and I have plotted dozens of graphs to show this). An assumption drawn from those two pieces of evidence is that the latter is the causal effect of the former, yet when the bogus ratings are removed the average rating of an album may go up by a few percentage points, but it still decreases with time - the causal effect of deliberate rating-manipulation is over-estimated; the assumption, while true, is not as significant as it is perceived to be. I can show mathematically that removing 8% of an albums ratings only affect the average rating by 0.7% - what that means is that 92% of the ratings (which are not deliberate abuse) accounts for 99.3% of the average score. Deliberate manipulation is futile, we can ignore it and get on with our lives.
 
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

This is a discussion forum, I  should be free to speak my mind unless anything else was stipulated against the things I say or said?
Speaking your mind is one thing - making allegations against a specific group of individuals without proof is something else - ignoring the legal aspects, (i.e. whether that's slander or libel or simply against forum guidelines), it is a baseless defamatory accusation. The distinction between the two is more than just being clever with words - it requires incontrovertible proof (and I have upset a fair number of people over the years by stating that).
 
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

P,S.Has  anyone brought crumpets? Shall I make some tea? Smilehugs
I have crumpets, unfortunatley they are shop-bought as I never seem to have the time to make my own any more.
 
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tapfret Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2013 at 11:42
This is all just once again more evidence supporting my theory that popularity is a disease. And I am going to again throw in my plug for ending quick ratings, a check code for album ratings and a waiting period for any rating at all.  

Edited by Tapfret - February 19 2013 at 11:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tapfret Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2013 at 11:45
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

black-hatted boggy men


hello new band name


And the rest of your post is spot on about ratings only. I guess we should take it for what it is, more of a statement about the rater than the ratee. ( ratey?)


Edited by Tapfret - February 19 2013 at 11:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2013 at 12:23
Originally posted by Argonaught Argonaught wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:


P,S.Has  anyone brought crumpets? Shall I make some tea? Smilehugs

as in "thinking man's crumpets"? 
 
I don't know what "thinking man's crumpets' are, Argonaught Smile eating man's crumpets maybe? Tongue
Hug 
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

P,S.Has anyone brought crumpets? Shall I make some tea? Smilehugs
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I have crumpets, unfortunatley they are shop-bought as I never seem to have the time to make my own any more.
Dean, the lack of time to bake them yourself might be due to being too busy fixing dodgy rathings WinkLOL but store bought will do fine yum! ApproveHug


Edited by Kati - February 19 2013 at 12:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2013 at 12:25
The thinking man's crumpet (historically) is Dame Joan Bakewell.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HolyMoly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2013 at 12:27
Ha ha "Bakewell" I get it.  a well baked crumpet.
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