Elitism in Prog?

Moshkito, I believe that despite our strong differences (And we have strong ones) boo boo and I have managed to keep a decent debate without attacking each one, only defending our positions.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 10 2010 at 20:26

Stonebolt wrote: This thread has made me think, if you play a guitar in front of a group of 11 and 12 year olds, they're always like, "dude, play the hardest thing you know, the hardest thing you know!" Why aren't all those kids listening to prog?

jplanet wrote: I'm with you. And, in some ways, this thread demonstrates one of the main reasons prog will most likely remain as obscure as it is now. Prog fans are very divided and particular about which aspects of this genre they will support, even if it is to the detriment of the artists whose music they love. I saw a thread at PE a while ago where several people were whining about the results of the 2009 DPRP poll, saying that there was no love for avant bands there, only neo-prog and symphonic. I asked if any of them voted in the poll, and they scoffed at the idea of participating in such a thing. What do you suppose drives that kind of thinking? It is elitism in its worst form - there are those that take such pleasure in being a part of a small group, they wouldn't dare write emails to fellow avant fans and encourage them to support the kind of groups they like, or post a link on their Facebook page to draw attention to their oft-underrated favorite bands - they quite literally said that this sort of thing was below them! This is not, in any way, a generalization of avant fans, I believe that many of the subgenres have large groups of fans guilty of this behavior - there are plenty of avant fans here on PA that are happy to recommend and support their favorite artists. In fact, as much as we argue here, I do think that PA is the least elitist of all the prog communities...

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 11 2010 at 00:23

Logan wrote: ^ Indeed, we should have a Prog pride parade!

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: jplanet wrote: I'm with you. And, in some ways, this thread demonstrates one of the main reasons prog will most likely remain as obscure as it is now. Prog fans are very divided and particular about which aspects of this genre they will support, even if it is to the detriment of the artists whose music they love. I saw a thread at PE a while ago where several people were whining about the results of the 2009 DPRP poll, saying that there was no love for avant bands there, only neo-prog and symphonic. I asked if any of them voted in the poll, and they scoffed at the idea of participating in such a thing. What do you suppose drives that kind of thinking? It is elitism in its worst form - there are those that take such pleasure in being a part of a small group, they wouldn't dare write emails to fellow avant fans and encourage them to support the kind of groups they like, or post a link on their Facebook page to draw attention to their oft-underrated favorite bands - they quite literally said that this sort of thing was below them! This is not, in any way, a generalization of avant fans, I believe that many of the subgenres have large groups of fans guilty of this behavior - there are plenty of avant fans here on PA that are happy to recommend and support their favorite artists. In fact, as much as we argue here, I do think that PA is the least elitist of all the prog communities...   I honestly disagree with most of this thread and agree with John being hat this site is not elitist: I'm tired of reading here How X Prog band is crap, How Prog is less important than Y genre, How stupid is Retro Prog Everything recorded after the 70's is crap 70's Prog is outdated Prog Metal is not Prog Neo Prog is derivative and boring How close minded we are if we dare to believe Prog is the best genre FOR US How narrow minded we are if we don't like Z genre How arrogant we are because we don't include bands despite they are not related with Prog And after this...We are elitist. Please, I hardly seen any other forum in which other genres are so respected, most of us love bands that are not Prog, but still we have the elitist stigma. Why should we feel guilty for loving Prog? Do the Pop, Jazz, Punk, Rock, Rap, Hip Hop fans feel guilty or arrogant because they believe their beloved genre is the best? Then why must we feel guilty, arrogant, elitist, self indulgent, etc? I believe it's time to say proudly "I love Prog and FOR ME it's the best music", without feeling guilt. Iván

I've actually been thinking along the same lines for a while. It seems as though Prog comes under a lot of attack here. I especially agree with 8 and 9, it seems that everytime I voice dislike over a particular artist, genre, or style it makes me close-minded (BTW boo boo, I'm not addressing your post a page back or so, calling me out on my critique of the Indie scene. Your point was actually compelling, and I'll address that later if I have time).

I also like #2 a lot. I know that there are composers out there who do or have done stuff a lot more complex and ambitious than any prog band. I know that there are plenty of jazz musicians who are more virtuoistic than a lot of prog musicians. And you know what? I still love prog more than I love those genres (I do love those genres, though, don't misunderstand me). I was thinking of doing a blog post on this, and maybe I still will.

I can also appreciate the rest. I personally really enjoy hearing music that is completely unlike anything I have ever heard before. I like hearing stuff that breaks new boundaries, that explores new territories. But I'm also not opposed to stuff that's a bit derivative of that, either. I don't really like a lot of neo-prog. But I don't look down on people who do like it.

I've used the analogy before, but territory that has been explored needs to be colonized. There's nothing wrong with a bunch of bands taking a sound established on a certain album and running with it. After all, isn't that essentially what Genesis did with ITCOTCK (and other early albums to be sure)? They took the direction KC had been exploring there, and fleshed it out, made it their own, settled there and took command of the Symph Prog domain. Sure, that's an oversimplification, but I can't stand it when anything with distorted bass or 12-strings is panned for being a rip-off. I think Anekdoten's Vemod is a great album! I don't think it's a rip-off of Red at all. I think it has elements similar to Red, but I think they breathed new life into it and made it their own.

Do I still derive the most enjoyment from new, groundbreaking stuff? Absolutely. But that doesn't limit my appreciation of other music, necessarily.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: I honestly disagree with most of this thread and agree with John being hat this site is not elitist: I'm tired of reading here How X Prog band is crap, How Prog is less important than Y genre, How stupid is Retro Prog Everything recorded after the 70's is crap 70's Prog is outdated Prog Metal is not Prog Neo Prog is derivative and boring How close minded we are if we dare to believe Prog is the best genre FOR US How narrow minded we are if we don't like Z genre How arrogant we are because we don't include bands despite they are not related with Prog And after this...We are elitist.

Well, I agree with the 7th one.

Please, I hardly seen any other forum in which other genres are so respected, most of us love bands that are not Prog, but still we have the elitist stigma. Why should we feel guilty for loving Prog?

Then why must we feel guilty, arrogant, elitist, self indulgent, etc?[quote] I'm only talking about specific examples and some of the more cringeworthy reviews I've read. I can't and I'm not writing off the whole forum   [quote]I believe it's time to say proudly "I love Prog and FOR ME it's the best music", without feeling guilt. Iván

Edited by boo boo - May 11 2010 at 06:49

Not referring to you boo boo (Not directly), but about a current of opinion that I seen lately in the forum.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 11 2010 at 10:53

I want to detract to this discussion simply by saying:

Prog is the absolute best of all genre's in fact it is the only genre of music. The other genres aren't music. Any music that is good is automatically progressive.

Progressive = Good

As it stands ~90% of my collection is on this site. So the Prog Community 90% agrees with my judgment of Good, and I agree with theirs. Our love triangle (me the prog community and prog) is therefore undoubtable.

In other words, I'm right and your wrong (fill in your with whomever you please)

... Yes a lot of critics cruelly write off prog and everyone who likes it and I've made a lot of rants about the subject. The lack of respect for entire genres like prog and metal is a big reason why I can't take any music critic seriously.

Progist wrote: Elitism is mostly pedantry, or snobbery. The need to dictate to people or run people down for your own gratification. I am happy for folks to like rinky-dinky nursery rhyme pop tunes if they want to! On the other hand, some people read Dostoyevsky, and I read trashy horror & sci-fi books, it doesn't mean that they are better than me. I like Prog music because it connects with me on an emotional level, whereas some like it for it's technical perfectionism, neither are wrong. Elitism comes in when you say, I am better than you because I like Prog or whatever. In the end, it's just an opinion really.

Edited by boo boo - May 11 2010 at 16:08