Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Polls
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Jethro Tull vs. Genesis
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedJethro Tull vs. Genesis

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 7>
Poll Question: Which band would you generally prefer if you had to choose?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
51 [36.17%]
90 [63.83%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted

Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
Snow Dog View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2011 at 07:02
Originally posted by giselle giselle wrote:

What a weird thing to compare. Like asking who prefers fish to eggs.

It's a simple enough question. What do you prefer fish or eggs. It's answerable.
Back to Top
someone_else View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: May 02 2008
Location: Going Bananas
Status: Offline
Points: 24011
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2011 at 06:59
^Caviar? Wink
Back to Top
giselle View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 18 2011
Location: Hertford
Status: Offline
Points: 466
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2011 at 05:20
What a weird thing to compare. Like asking who prefers fish to eggs.
Back to Top
June View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 03 2008
Location: Montreal
Status: Offline
Points: 6521
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 19:04
Originally posted by colorofmoney91 colorofmoney91 wrote:

I'm going for Tull. Listening to a whole Genesis album is grating to me.


This.
Back to Top
twosteves View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 01 2007
Location: NYC/Rhinebeck
Status: Offline
Points: 4071
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 18:09
sound chaser and Gates doesn't put me to sleep---but TAAB is a great song to take a snooze to---I used to love it--but it's rambling and a tad boring for me today.
Back to Top
dr prog View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 25 2010
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 2449
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 18:00
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

 
Soundchaser is exactly what Ian is probably talking about. A song that starts great but repeats itself for nearly 10 minutes. Becomes a bit annoying by the half way mark. Gates starts off great too, but then you have 5 minutes of effects and the eerie Soon. Nothing beats great melody imo. I expect at least a dozen strong melodies in a great album, not 2 or 3. TAAB has about a dozen great compositions.

Those 'effects' are all thoroughly composed and I can clearly discern a direction to the composition.  You may be simply unaccustomed to unconventional music. Calling that noodling is, I am sorry, preposterous when the band clearly has intended to build a mood through the so called effect. I don't even think that is what Anderson meant, it seems to be a rather lazy and dangerously generalized comment, probably with an eye to endear his music more to the classic rock audience, which supposedly hates prog.
 
My whole collection consists of prog bands who started in the 60's or 70s so I'm obviously in the right place. But what I love about prog is the composition and I'd never replace composition with experimenting unless I ran out of composition ideas Big smile
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 06:45
Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

 
Soundchaser is exactly what Ian is probably talking about. A song that starts great but repeats itself for nearly 10 minutes. Becomes a bit annoying by the half way mark. Gates starts off great too, but then you have 5 minutes of effects and the eerie Soon. Nothing beats great melody imo. I expect at least a dozen strong melodies in a great album, not 2 or 3. TAAB has about a dozen great compositions.

Those 'effects' are all thoroughly composed and I can clearly discern a direction to the composition.  You may be simply unaccustomed to unconventional music. Calling that noodling is, I am sorry, preposterous when the band clearly has intended to build a mood through the so called effect. I don't even think that is what Anderson meant, it seems to be a rather lazy and dangerously generalized comment, probably with an eye to endear his music more to the classic rock audience, which supposedly hates prog.
Back to Top
Snow Dog View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 06:43
Back to topic
Back to Top
Snow Dog View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 06:42
ha. Relayer is about ten times better than TAAB.
Back to Top
dr prog View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 25 2010
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 2449
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 06:36
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

 
Ian is just saying that bands such as Yes and Genesis took it a step too far occasionally. I agree with him. I would like Yes more if they stuck to shorter tunes, but the question is Could Yes continue to produce 10 compositions per album?

He didn't say that at all, at least the words used were much harsher.  What is a step too far, anything you don't like? As I said, each one is entitled to his preferences but the concept of noodling is not so whimsical. It is clearly a section of music that completely lacks any initiative, does not take the composition forward and lacks much relation to what comes before and after it. You'd be hard pressed to objectively name more instances in the 70s recordings of Yes than JT.  Generally, their material is thoroughly composed regardless of whether it's brilliant or mediocre. Moreover, anything that is unorthodox or unconventional like Sound Chaser is not necessarily noodling. JT rely much more on songs than free form and so will tend to be more accessible, but that doesn't mean using free form is in itself a bad idea.
 
Soundchaser is exactly what Ian is probably talking about. A song that starts great but repeats itself for nearly 10 minutes. Becomes a bit annoying by the half way mark. Gates starts off great too, but then you have 5 minutes of effects and the eerie Soon. Nothing beats great melody imo. I expect at least a dozen strong melodies in a great album, not 2 or 3. TAAB has about a dozen great compositions.


Edited by dr prog - April 22 2011 at 06:37
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 06:09
Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

 
Ian is just saying that bands such as Yes and Genesis took it a step too far occasionally. I agree with him. I would like Yes more if they stuck to shorter tunes, but the question is Could Yes continue to produce 10 compositions per album?

He didn't say that at all, at least the words used were much harsher.  What is a step too far, anything you don't like? As I said, each one is entitled to his preferences but the concept of noodling is not so whimsical. It is clearly a section of music that completely lacks any initiative, does not take the composition forward and lacks much relation to what comes before and after it. You'd be hard pressed to objectively name more instances in the 70s recordings of Yes than JT.  Generally, their material is thoroughly composed regardless of whether it's brilliant or mediocre. Moreover, anything that is unorthodox or unconventional like Sound Chaser is not necessarily noodling. JT rely much more on songs than free form and so will tend to be more accessible, but that doesn't mean using free form is in itself a bad idea.
Back to Top
dr prog View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 25 2010
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 2449
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 06:03
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

You are backpedalling now. You earlier defended Anderson's statement which tantamounted to saying that Yes simply covered a decent idea with noodling and said you don't like compositions with a lot of filler. A reasonable reading of what you said would give the impression that you think Yes in general were just a pile of noodle, which you are backtracking from now.
 
I never said anything bad about Yes, so why you say I did? Wink
All I'm saying is while Yes are one of my top 10 fave bands, they kind of lost their greatness after 1972 because they dragged out songs to 15 or 20 minutes when there wasn't enough strong composition to fill the song. I see great moments but also holes in Relayer. GFTO isn't bad, but nowhere near the quality of 1970-72. I quite like Tormato because it was back to the shorter songs like Fragile/The yes album. I quite like Tales but I still don't see the need for a double album. Tull was capable of making a 45 minute song without much filler, while Yes would struggle to make a 20 minute song without the same amount of filler. Ian Anderson was  such a good composer. He came up with so many good melodic verses/chorses. So many great bonus tracks

Again, that's not what you were saying earlier so you have changed your stance.  And you are again generalizing in the last part. Yes at their best could make an epic, namely CTTE, tighter than any of JT's compositions. It has no filler whatsoever, so I don't see how you came to that conclusion.  And even when I don't like TFTO, I don't think they padded out their songs intentionally to stretch them to 20 minutes, it's simply that the material itself isn't that strong.  I don't think that is the same thing as padding or noodling at all, whereas you were agreeing to a statement of Anderson that Yes and ELP simply noodled out decent ideas.  
 
I haven't changed my stance at all. I never said anything about not liking Yes. I think you had a dream about me knocking them because you are saying stuff i never said and somehow you think I dislike the band. I obviously do like them because i have all their 60s, 70s and early 80s remasters as well as the 20 year box set. I like Yes alot but I like Tull more. Same with Genesis, I like their mid 70s without Gabriel and quite like their Gabriel years although there are some cringeworthy moments from Gabriel which takes some gloss off their 1970-74 period

If you did not change your stance and if you really like Yes, care to explain what do you find justifiable about Anderson's disparaging comment about Yes?  So, you like taking a decent idea and running with it for a week with piles of noodling, am I to take that as your 'final' stance?
 
Ian is just saying that bands such as Yes and Genesis took it a step too far occasionally. I agree with him. I would like Yes more if they stuck to shorter tunes, but the question is Could Yes continue to produce 10 compositions per album?


Edited by dr prog - April 22 2011 at 06:04
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 05:33
Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

You are backpedalling now. You earlier defended Anderson's statement which tantamounted to saying that Yes simply covered a decent idea with noodling and said you don't like compositions with a lot of filler. A reasonable reading of what you said would give the impression that you think Yes in general were just a pile of noodle, which you are backtracking from now.
 
I never said anything bad about Yes, so why you say I did? Wink
All I'm saying is while Yes are one of my top 10 fave bands, they kind of lost their greatness after 1972 because they dragged out songs to 15 or 20 minutes when there wasn't enough strong composition to fill the song. I see great moments but also holes in Relayer. GFTO isn't bad, but nowhere near the quality of 1970-72. I quite like Tormato because it was back to the shorter songs like Fragile/The yes album. I quite like Tales but I still don't see the need for a double album. Tull was capable of making a 45 minute song without much filler, while Yes would struggle to make a 20 minute song without the same amount of filler. Ian Anderson was  such a good composer. He came up with so many good melodic verses/chorses. So many great bonus tracks

Again, that's not what you were saying earlier so you have changed your stance.  And you are again generalizing in the last part. Yes at their best could make an epic, namely CTTE, tighter than any of JT's compositions. It has no filler whatsoever, so I don't see how you came to that conclusion.  And even when I don't like TFTO, I don't think they padded out their songs intentionally to stretch them to 20 minutes, it's simply that the material itself isn't that strong.  I don't think that is the same thing as padding or noodling at all, whereas you were agreeing to a statement of Anderson that Yes and ELP simply noodled out decent ideas.  
 
I haven't changed my stance at all. I never said anything about not liking Yes. I think you had a dream about me knocking them because you are saying stuff i never said and somehow you think I dislike the band. I obviously do like them because i have all their 60s, 70s and early 80s remasters as well as the 20 year box set. I like Yes alot but I like Tull more. Same with Genesis, I like their mid 70s without Gabriel and quite like their Gabriel years although there are some cringeworthy moments from Gabriel which takes some gloss off their 1970-74 period

If you did not change your stance and if you really like Yes, care to explain what do you find justifiable about Anderson's disparaging comment about Yes?  So, you like taking a decent idea and running with it for a week with piles of noodling, am I to take that as your 'final' stance?
Back to Top
dr prog View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 25 2010
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 2449
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 05:28
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

You are backpedalling now. You earlier defended Anderson's statement which tantamounted to saying that Yes simply covered a decent idea with noodling and said you don't like compositions with a lot of filler. A reasonable reading of what you said would give the impression that you think Yes in general were just a pile of noodle, which you are backtracking from now.
 
I never said anything bad about Yes, so why you say I did? Wink
All I'm saying is while Yes are one of my top 10 fave bands, they kind of lost their greatness after 1972 because they dragged out songs to 15 or 20 minutes when there wasn't enough strong composition to fill the song. I see great moments but also holes in Relayer. GFTO isn't bad, but nowhere near the quality of 1970-72. I quite like Tormato because it was back to the shorter songs like Fragile/The yes album. I quite like Tales but I still don't see the need for a double album. Tull was capable of making a 45 minute song without much filler, while Yes would struggle to make a 20 minute song without the same amount of filler. Ian Anderson was  such a good composer. He came up with so many good melodic verses/chorses. So many great bonus tracks

Again, that's not what you were saying earlier so you have changed your stance.  And you are again generalizing in the last part. Yes at their best could make an epic, namely CTTE, tighter than any of JT's compositions. It has no filler whatsoever, so I don't see how you came to that conclusion.  And even when I don't like TFTO, I don't think they padded out their songs intentionally to stretch them to 20 minutes, it's simply that the material itself isn't that strong.  I don't think that is the same thing as padding or noodling at all, whereas you were agreeing to a statement of Anderson that Yes and ELP simply noodled out decent ideas.  
 
I haven't changed my stance at all. I never said anything about not liking Yes. I think you had a dream about me knocking them because you are saying stuff i never said and somehow you think I dislike the band. I obviously do like them because i have all their 60s, 70s and early 80s remasters as well as the 20 year box set. I like Yes alot but I like Tull more. Same with Genesis, I like their mid 70s without Gabriel and quite like their Gabriel years although there are some cringeworthy moments from Gabriel which takes some gloss off their 1970-74 period
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 02:11
Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

You are backpedalling now. You earlier defended Anderson's statement which tantamounted to saying that Yes simply covered a decent idea with noodling and said you don't like compositions with a lot of filler. A reasonable reading of what you said would give the impression that you think Yes in general were just a pile of noodle, which you are backtracking from now.
 
I never said anything bad about Yes, so why you say I did? Wink
All I'm saying is while Yes are one of my top 10 fave bands, they kind of lost their greatness after 1972 because they dragged out songs to 15 or 20 minutes when there wasn't enough strong composition to fill the song. I see great moments but also holes in Relayer. GFTO isn't bad, but nowhere near the quality of 1970-72. I quite like Tormato because it was back to the shorter songs like Fragile/The yes album. I quite like Tales but I still don't see the need for a double album. Tull was capable of making a 45 minute song without much filler, while Yes would struggle to make a 20 minute song without the same amount of filler. Ian Anderson was  such a good composer. He came up with so many good melodic verses/chorses. So many great bonus tracks

Again, that's not what you were saying earlier so you have changed your stance.  And you are again generalizing in the last part. Yes at their best could make an epic, namely CTTE, tighter than any of JT's compositions. It has no filler whatsoever, so I don't see how you came to that conclusion.  And even when I don't like TFTO, I don't think they padded out their songs intentionally to stretch them to 20 minutes, it's simply that the material itself isn't that strong.  I don't think that is the same thing as padding or noodling at all, whereas you were agreeing to a statement of Anderson that Yes and ELP simply noodled out decent ideas.  
Back to Top
dr prog View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 25 2010
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 2449
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 02:02
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

You are backpedalling now. You earlier defended Anderson's statement which tantamounted to saying that Yes simply covered a decent idea with noodling and said you don't like compositions with a lot of filler. A reasonable reading of what you said would give the impression that you think Yes in general were just a pile of noodle, which you are backtracking from now.
 
I never said anything bad about Yes, so why you say I did? Wink
All I'm saying is while Yes are one of my top 10 fave bands, they kind of lost their greatness after 1972 because they dragged out songs to 15 or 20 minutes when there wasn't enough strong composition to fill the song. I see great moments but also holes in Relayer. GFTO isn't bad, but nowhere near the quality of 1970-72. I quite like Tormato because it was back to the shorter songs like Fragile/The yes album. I quite like Tales but I still don't see the need for a double album. Tull was capable of making a 45 minute song without much filler, while Yes would struggle to make a 20 minute song without the same amount of filler. Ian Anderson was  such a good composer. He came up with so many good melodic verses/chorses. So many great bonus tracks


Edited by dr prog - April 22 2011 at 02:04
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 01:22
Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

There's a touch of filler in the title song I think. I think Relayer has more filler though. Gates doesn't need to be 20 minutes long. I only rate the first 5 or 6 minutes highly. Nothing beats composition. Noises and ballads show lack of ideas imo


Touch, indeed!  Whatever.  And that section after the first five minutes is carefully composed music, unless you also regard Schoenberg or Stockhausen as noise and only anything blues based with happy chords as music.  Seriously though, TAAB loses the plot from minutes 20 to 30 and you have more of an issue with a 'touch of filler' in CTTE?  You are evidently quite biased.  I like both bands, mind, so I am just trying to understand whether you have any point.
 
The only filler on TAAB is near the start of side 2. But it is filler I guess. But I do prefer TAAB over CTTE

You're very much entitled to your preferences. nobody is questioning them.  But don't come up with specious arguments to create a pseudo-empirical basis to dismiss another band.  
 
Why not? I think Yes were best from 1970-72. I honestly think they started to run out of composition ideas after that. They only did 2 albums from 1975-1979. 2 albums in 5 years isn't much. Was never a big fan of GFTO either.

You are backpedalling now. You earlier defended Anderson's statement which tantamounted to saying that Yes simply covered a decent idea with noodling and said you don't like compositions with a lot of filler. A reasonable reading of what you said would give the impression that you think Yes in general were just a pile of noodle, which you are backtracking from now.
Back to Top
dr prog View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 25 2010
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 2449
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 01:12
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

There's a touch of filler in the title song I think. I think Relayer has more filler though. Gates doesn't need to be 20 minutes long. I only rate the first 5 or 6 minutes highly. Nothing beats composition. Noises and ballads show lack of ideas imo


Touch, indeed!  Whatever.  And that section after the first five minutes is carefully composed music, unless you also regard Schoenberg or Stockhausen as noise and only anything blues based with happy chords as music.  Seriously though, TAAB loses the plot from minutes 20 to 30 and you have more of an issue with a 'touch of filler' in CTTE?  You are evidently quite biased.  I like both bands, mind, so I am just trying to understand whether you have any point.
 
The only filler on TAAB is near the start of side 2. But it is filler I guess. But I do prefer TAAB over CTTE

You're very much entitled to your preferences. nobody is questioning them.  But don't come up with specious arguments to create a pseudo-empirical basis to dismiss another band.  
 
Why not? I think Yes were best from 1970-72. I honestly think they started to run out of composition ideas after that. They only did 2 albums from 1975-1979. 2 albums in 5 years isn't much. Was never a big fan of GFTO either.
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 00:05
Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

There's a touch of filler in the title song I think. I think Relayer has more filler though. Gates doesn't need to be 20 minutes long. I only rate the first 5 or 6 minutes highly. Nothing beats composition. Noises and ballads show lack of ideas imo


Touch, indeed!  Whatever.  And that section after the first five minutes is carefully composed music, unless you also regard Schoenberg or Stockhausen as noise and only anything blues based with happy chords as music.  Seriously though, TAAB loses the plot from minutes 20 to 30 and you have more of an issue with a 'touch of filler' in CTTE?  You are evidently quite biased.  I like both bands, mind, so I am just trying to understand whether you have any point.
 
The only filler on TAAB is near the start of side 2. But it is filler I guess. But I do prefer TAAB over CTTE

You're very much entitled to your preferences. nobody is questioning them.  But don't come up with specious arguments to create a pseudo-empirical basis to dismiss another band.  
Back to Top
dr prog View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 25 2010
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 2449
Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2011 at 23:30
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by dr prog dr prog wrote:

There's a touch of filler in the title song I think. I think Relayer has more filler though. Gates doesn't need to be 20 minutes long. I only rate the first 5 or 6 minutes highly. Nothing beats composition. Noises and ballads show lack of ideas imo


Touch, indeed!  Whatever.  And that section after the first five minutes is carefully composed music, unless you also regard Schoenberg or Stockhausen as noise and only anything blues based with happy chords as music.  Seriously though, TAAB loses the plot from minutes 20 to 30 and you have more of an issue with a 'touch of filler' in CTTE?  You are evidently quite biased.  I like both bands, mind, so I am just trying to understand whether you have any point.
 
The only filler on TAAB is near the start of side 2. But it is filler I guess. But I do prefer TAAB over CTTE
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 7>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.133 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.