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Topic ClosedEmulating Classic Prog Is Not Prog

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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2011 at 10:26
^^^ But a LOT of stuff has been done on guitar by now.  We would need another radical reinvention of the use of guitar to find some excitement again but I don't know if rock audiences are ready for that.  The problem with loving the sound of something too much is you don't want to move on to a new sound but the latter used to be the prime mover of renewal in  music.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2011 at 09:20
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

^^^ But a LOT of stuff has been done on guitar by now.  We would need another radical reinvention of the use of guitar to find some excitement again but I don't know if rock audiences are ready for that.  The problem with loving the sound of something too much is you don't want to move on to a new sound but the latter used to be the prime mover of renewal in  music.  

Good point!  However, pioneers show how it's done, i.e. Fripp & Belew blazed a huge trail with the Roland guitar synth during the "Discipline" KC era! 

Artists need to push out of the comfort zone - Jaco and Percy really blew open the door with the fretless electric bass guitar, which is now commonplace.  That single innovation greatly expanded the vocabulary of the prog idiom. 

I really don't see today's innovators, do you?  Nobody with that kind of impact (Fripp etc.).  Fareed Haque does some, with the fretless Glissentar guitar, Moog guitar etc.  He's the only one I can think of.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2011 at 09:36
I think Bela Fleck did amazing stuff with the banjo. Likewise, his bandmate in the Flecktones Howard Levy was very innovative with his use of harmonica. But, sorry to say a such a harsh thing, people don't even seem to be interested in discussing these things anymore. It's all Citus Altius Fortius now and the fastest fingers get maximum eyeballs.

On a related note, some of the more amazing musicians seem to confine themselves to fusion proper and don't make music in a prog rock context.  Maybe because of the bad press it attracted at the end of the 70s. Who would want to waste their career if no recognition or appreciation lies in that direction?


Edited by rogerthat - May 07 2011 at 09:37
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verslibre View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2011 at 12:00
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

 Fareed Haque does some, with the fretless Glissentar guitar, Moog guitar etc.  He's the only one I can think of.
 
Discovery, right? Garaj Mahal is a great band because they have chops to spare but don't let the tracks suffer for gratuitous technical display. That CD is a bunch of great compositions. All fantastic players. Thumbs Up
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2011 at 21:25
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

 Fareed Haque does some, with the fretless Glissentar guitar, Moog guitar etc.  He's the only one I can think of.
 
Discovery, right? Garaj Mahal is a great band because they have chops to spare but don't let the tracks suffer for gratuitous technical display. That CD is a bunch of great compositions. All fantastic players. Thumbs Up

Yeah, great product!  Please explore his website:


I've seen him fronting his old "Fareed Haque Group," which channeled RTF while adding tablas & stuff!  Amazing!  He regularly gives classical guitar concerts, and fronts Garaj Mahal, Flat Earth Ensemble and his latest, Math Games!!  

The dude is pretty amazing!   Here, he sits in on Moog guitar with the California Guitar Trio, playing a Mahavishnu Orchestra classic!!  



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2011 at 01:03
Emulating Classic Prog is not Prog. Well, it may not be the technical definition (by the use of wording) but that's not necessarily a true statement neither. Look at any other genre of music, from classical to hip hop. Every genre of music has prevalent elements in the music that fit to a specific mould. This is what makes them part of a classification (or genre) to begin with. Although in principle I will agree that originality should be the paramount priority among new bands, I can't say that those who play it closer to the vest are not in the genre.

Old keyboard sound are cool and haven't lost their charm among many bands and listeners. Nothing better than a good Mellotron and a Moog or ARP synth. I think they could both be used more uniquely in modern times but to me there is nothing wrong with them. Some bands start by emulating a more known act from the past up until they find their own sound. A perfect example of this would be Marillion. They started sounding like a Genesis knock-off but continued untl they found their own sound. The differences between albums like "Fugazzi" and "Brave" are huge but, both albums are great albums in their own way. I don't mind if a band stars by emulating another great band so as long as at one point, they evolve into their own sound. In a way, it is like going to Prog school before graduating. 

Familiarity and personal "comfort zones" are the biggest commonalities among many fans. One could say that Prog-metal is the newest form of innovating Prog with the exception that it is composed almost of an even mix of two sub-genres. Looking at it from that point of view, it is not Prog neither.

A lot relies on the eyes and ears of the beholder. Music is a very subjective thing. What's good for some is not as good for others and so on. Progressive rock is not limited to verbal definitions although the name does imply some forward thinking form the part of the music. If it is original, great. If it is an emulation, it depends on how good the final result sounds like. If it sounds good, then it is good. If it sounds like a cheap copy of someone else, then it's no good and so forth.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2011 at 23:55
Well how about the numerous so-called prog fans who say "YOU CAN'T DO THAT IN A PROG SONG BECAUSE IT'S NOT ESTABLISHED PRACTICE". I think we can agree that these people are not particularly prog.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2011 at 01:22
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

Well how about the numerous so-called prog fans who say "YOU CAN'T DO THAT IN A PROG SONG BECAUSE IT'S NOT ESTABLISHED PRACTICE". I think we can agree that these people are not particularly prog.
Eh? Confused
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2011 at 11:02
Good music should rise to the top....I enjoy Fish-era Marillion, even though they borrow so heavily from Gabriel-era Genesis that they could be accused of "ripping them off"! 

I've written originals that borrowed VERY heavily from Yes, Genesis and King Crimson, and was complimented on these.  Stylistically, the songs were all mine, but the influence was certainly there. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2011 at 11:39
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Good music should rise to the top....I enjoy Fish-era Marillion, even though they borrow so heavily from Gabriel-era Genesis that they could be accused of "ripping them off"! 

I've written originals that borrowed VERY heavily from Yes, Genesis and King Crimson, and was complimented on these.  Stylistically, the songs were all mine, but the influence was certainly there. 

I'm not saying that it is a bad thing to be influenced by the great ones at all. That also happens in all genres of music. Without commonalities, there wouldn't be a classification at all. My CD from a couple of years ago is composed of Genesis covers and original songs done more or less in the style of Genesis. I found out a lot about the fans in doing the album. I found out that you will never please everyone, that there are definitely two camps of fans: those who like the idea of reinterpretations and those who hate the idea of reinterpretations altogether.

There are no doubts in my mind that early Marillion borrowed heavily from Genesis. Their song "Grendel" has many riffs lifted straight out of "Supper's Ready" as well as the overall song structure. But that's okay, I very much like Marillion. By the time they recorded "Misplaced Childhood" they had found their most cohesive and original sound with Fish on vocals. To me, their best effort with Hogarth was "Brave". That record has many musical subtleties that makes it a brilliant piece of music.

You can check some samples of my records and make up your mind here:  http://www.leonplaysmusic.com/Site/file_2.html
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2011 at 11:58
Fretting over what is and isn't to be considered prog is missing the point. Just listen to the music and judge it on it's own merit, not on how strictly it adheres to (or rejects) your notion of progressive music. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2011 at 19:57
Originally posted by Majikthise Majikthise wrote:

Fretting over what is and isn't to be considered prog is missing the point. Just listen to the music and judge it on it's own merit, not on how strictly it adheres to (or rejects) your notion of progressive music. 



Well, why shouldn't the same position be taken then on controversial additions? Obviously it can't be, I know, I am just saying this for the sake of argument. I think these last few posts aren't written in light of the specific politics that Textbook was addressing, which is that are we getting to the point that where only something that sounds strongly like old prog will go through without grumbling?  I am not talking about what has been accepted into the forum, because there have been some, well, interesting additions over the years but these were opposed strongly and large quarters of members still don't accept them as prog. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2011 at 21:09
How do you know they aren't emulating what the classic prog artists were emulating instead of classic prog? Wink
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2011 at 22:47
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

How do you know they aren't emulating what the classic prog artists were emulating instead of classic prog? Wink

Damn!!  Clap
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2011 at 01:18
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

How do you know they aren't emulating what the classic prog artists were emulating instead of classic prog?
I've used this idea many a time before in defending modern prog bands that people have called "retro". Who is to say they aren't taking from the same sources that the "classics" were? It's not like symph prog, RIO, etc. have to end arbitrarily after the 70's, there are still many possibilities inherent within these styles.


Edited by King Crimson776 - May 11 2011 at 01:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2011 at 01:21
The real answer is easy, if it sounds like Prog to you, then it is. Don't let others sway you any other way, emulation or not. After all, isn't your own opinion the only one that counts when you buy your music?

Now, go get that copy of "Close To The Edge"!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2011 at 10:40
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

How do you know they aren't emulating what the classic prog artists were emulating instead of classic prog? Wink

And what exactly did the classic prog artists EMULATE?  Drawing influences - which any artist has to do - versus emulating.....big difference!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2011 at 11:30
Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:



Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

How do you know they aren't emulating what the classic prog artists were emulating instead of classic prog?

I've used this idea many a time before in defending modern prog bands that people have called "retro". Who is to say they aren't taking from the same sources that the "classics" were? It's not like symph prog, RIO, etc. have to end arbitrarily after the 70's, there are still many possibilities inherent within these styles.



100% true!
For example Israeli band Trespass composed this without even knowing what prog is, thinking that they were original (the name of the group and the fact that their keyboardist looks lke Wakeman in the 70s is pure coincidence):



You could even think that this is a ripoff...
Michael's Sonic Kaleidoscope Mondays 5:00pm EST(re-runs Thursdays 3:00pm) @ Delicious Agony Progressive Rock Radio(http://www.deliciousagony.com)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2011 at 14:34
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

And what exactly did the classic prog artists EMULATE?  Drawing influences - which any artist has to do - versus emulating.....big difference!
The point is, the modern prog bands could simply be "drawing influences" as well.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 11 2011 at 19:08

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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