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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 11:18
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by andyman1125 andyman1125 wrote:

Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Originally posted by andyman1125 andyman1125 wrote:

Originally posted by Nathaniel607 Nathaniel607 wrote:

 
There are only so many notes, you know? Only so many chords. 12 Major, 12 Minor, and about 100 variations (but usually, they don't sound too different). 

You obviously have no music theory background. There are thousands of chords.


That is definitely not true, at least not in the Western diatonic tradition. There are thousands of ways to voice chords, depending on the range of the instrument, but even allowing for extended harmonies (which are only really I chords imposed with vii chords or ii chords and so on, you're still drawing from the same set of notes, just at different times. Ok, so you can just stack notes around for the sake of making really obscure chords, but these will not be very musically useful--not in the way out ears prefer at least. Same with micro-tonal music.

The best way to be useful in Western music is to make a good melody or delve deep into interesting timbres (re: synthesis and experimenting with various combinations of ethnic instruments). Even if most interesting combinations of chords and progressions have been done already (protip: they have), it's the style in which they're used and the timbres they employ that make it unique.

So then hundreds Wink
Variations aside, there are still many more than just 24 chords. Consider,
12 major
12 minor
12 M7
12 m7
12 dom7
12 half dim7
12 dim7
12 M9
12 m9


and I could keep going, and going...

But yes, I admit thousands is a bit of an exaggeration for actual chords. But voicing, yes, there are thousands of variations!
And I completely agree about the timbre and tone of a progression that makes it unique.


I'm not well-versed in music theory.  Here's an interesting article, though, on the issue: http://ezinearticles.com/?How-Many-Chords-Are-There,-Anyway?&id=59841
Mathematically, if you stick to all the notes in the chord being in the same octave there are 479,001,600 possible note permutaions that can be played together, obviously extend that to include notes from other octaves and it gets even sillier. (and you may need to grow extra fingers to play them). How useful these chords are depends on what you are trying to achieve by using them and how harmonious or discordant you want them to be either in isolation or as part of a progression, in the main, the 60 or so "established" chords are the ones most frequently used because they are the most useful ... but this is Prog so there are no rules.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 11:32
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Mathematically, if you stick to all the notes in the chord being in the same octave there are 479,001,600 possible note permutaions that can be played together, obviously extend that to include notes from other octaves and it gets even sillier. (and you may need to grow extra fingers to play them). How useful these chords are depends on what you are trying to achieve by using them and how harmonious or discordant you want them to be either in isolation or as part of a progression, in the main, the 60 or so "established" chords are the ones most frequently used because they are the most useful ... but this is Prog so there are no rules.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 11:46
Originally posted by clarke2001 clarke2001 wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Mathematically, if you stick to all the notes in the chord being in the same octave there are 479,001,600 possible note permutaions that can be played together, obviously extend that to include notes from other octaves and it gets even sillier. (and you may need to grow extra fingers to play them). How useful these chords are depends on what you are trying to achieve by using them and how harmonious or discordant you want them to be either in isolation or as part of a progression, in the main, the 60 or so "established" chords are the ones most frequently used because they are the most useful ... but this is Prog so there are no rules.


479001444. Geek
Okay, so I did a quick calc. Power chords count so 479,001,588 Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 12:31
If you don't even know what is prog, please go away. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 12:37
All that also factors in that people would be playing thirds and seconds below tenor C, which no. Because very no. And that low with minor 2nds, 3rds, 4ths, and majors of the same....at once. That is called a wall of sh*t. Sure that's a chord, but no one except a troll would ever use it an call it musical.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 18:07
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I'm not well-versed in music theory.  Here's an interesting article, though, on the issue: http://ezinearticles.com/?How-Many-Chords-Are-There,-Anyway?&id=59841
 
Cool no-BS layman's article. Thanks for posting that. Thumbs Up
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 18:27
Originally posted by andyman1125 andyman1125 wrote:

Originally posted by andyman1125 andyman1125 wrote:

 
You obviously have no music theory background. There are thousands of chords.


So then hundreds Wink
Variations aside, there are still many more than just 24 chords. Consider,
12 major
12 minor
12 M7
12 m7
12 dom7
12 half dim7
12 dim7
12 M9
12 m9


and I could keep going, and going...

But yes, I admit thousands is a bit of an exaggeration for actual chords. But voicing, yes, there are thousands of variations!
And I completely agree about the timbre and tone of a progression that makes it unique.


Ermm

That's what I was talking about when I said "variations". The 7ths, 9ths, Sus, Sus4, 13ths, 14ths etcetera etcetera. But really, there are only the 24 core chords. The 7ths and such are certainly unique but if you where to change all the extended chords out for their non-extended equivalents, you'd still usually be able to recognize a chord sequence. 

I am not a massive expert on music theory, but I know the basics (just recently passed my grade 4). 

Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Ok, so you can just stack notes around for the sake of making really obscure chords, but these will not be very musically useful--not in the way out ears prefer at least. Same with micro-tonal music.

The best way to be useful in Western music is to make a good melody or delve deep into interesting timbres (re: synthesis and experimenting with various combinations of ethnic instruments). Even if most interesting combinations of chords and progressions have been done already (protip: they have), it's the style in which they're used and the timbres they employ that make it unique.

Yes, and this. Once you get past 9ths, they pretty much sound the same (though that's not to say they can't sound nice). 

And yes, dynamics, timbres, voicing and melodies all make a difference.

Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

All that also factors in that people would be playing thirds and seconds below tenor C, which no. Because very no. And that low with minor 2nds, 3rds, 4ths, and majors of the same....at once. That is called a wall of sh*t. Sure that's a chord, but no one except a troll would ever use it an call it musical.
 

Yeah, they're just note clusters, which aren't really chords as such.

Reminds me of my GCSE music exam. You had to tell the difference between Classical, early Romantic, Late Romantic and 20th Century Classical. The only one that was easy was 20th Century because the rest would be what you normally consider classical and then BOOM. This happens;



(more like that)





Edited by Nathaniel607 - April 22 2011 at 18:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 18:38
Oh this people that can just sit and enjoy their damn music... No matter what chords are in...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 19:06
It's become just a genre name. All new sounding music is progressive. It's like saying all Garage rock has to be played in a garage.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 19:44
Originally posted by aginor aginor wrote:

@ Textbook   Ying Yang
 
so what doo you actualy think of the trancition of the aucustic and more folksy, dark and serching Genesis (Tresspass - Nurcery Cryme - Foxtrot) classic prog - including some pop, but still use of twelve stringguitar  and mellotron (Selling England by the Poumd - the Lamb Lies Down on Broadway) the trancition albums, more heavy guitar useage, influences form more oriental sounds/chord sequnces, more melodic/melancholic (A Tirck to Tail - Wind and Wuthering - And Then They Were Three) start to use Polysynth, pushing newer drum loop technology, lee to no at aucustic instruments, zero mellotron, more minimalistic (Duke -  Abacab - Genesis - invicible Touch).
 
 
is it becous the last four albums lack aucustic folk passages and dark passages, makes them less classic prog,  but to me Genesis were still progressive in style, by daring to use newer more futuristic instruments and recording technics (like Headless guitars, samplers, synthesisers/ARP)  80s gensis is very futuristic and minimalistic (Mama - Home by the Sea/second Home by the sea, almoust industrial)
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2011 at 00:04
In my opinion all progressive rock (noun) is progressive (adjective) in some way... even Marillion's Misplaced Childhood (which I consider to be regressive in a way... check out my review) is IMO progressive in some ways...

Even the bands that just want to sound like the 70s prog classics are progressive because change is inherent to the prog sound of groups such as Yes and Genesis, so we always get something different since we have a particular mix of influences never seen before or we have a new angle to the particular style. For example, (I am simplifying things here) in early Marillion we have a combination of Genesis and Pink Floyd. It is always a new angle and sound, although maybe recognizable... they at the end are pushing the, in this case, symphonic prog sub-genre forward with a new palette of sounds and new perspectives to the sound, you don't need to revolutionize music to be progressive (if it were so Genesis' A Trick of the Tail, Yes' Going For the One, King Crimson's In the Wake of Poseidon, etc. couldn't be considered progressive rock because they didn't actually do something they haven't done before, besides writing new music that shows a different perspective of the style they previously developed)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2011 at 00:35
^^^ But that necessarily supposes that anything with a prog rock sense of structure would throw up new ways of looking at old things, at the very least. What is progressive (adj) about Delicate Flame of Desire?  It is Floyd-tribute filtered through adult contemporary pop and has been done before too.  The only thing at all that may be novel about it is the presence of a female singer but that would be like saying the fact that Karen Carpenter could play drums made Carpenters progressive. If we adopt such a broad outlook of progressive (adj) that any remotely different aspect to the music makes it progressive, then even putting the chorus before the verse or writing a hard rock song without the obligatory face melting solo must be prog.  We have to draw the line somewhere.  I agree that Trick of the tail represents little more than expansion of Genesis's sound, but it's THEIR sound.  It was not some other band's sound they were tributing and in the process making some slightly different choices.  Sure, Trespass would not have happened without ITCOTCK,but Genesis, regardless, had their own sound, as distinct from any of KC's work.  I have no objection to calling some 70s albums derivative by the way. I mean, Bacamarte has some very obvious KC quotes for instance and is very modestly prog, at best.    
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2011 at 02:46
Progressive Rock (Prog) was simply a new form of Rock and Roll. Prog is defined by an (incredibly subjective) combination of styles, forms, genres, etc.  To progress, once again, beyond Prog to still another new form of Rock and Roll is inevitable, but that new musical form will not be Prog.
 
Most of the Jazz created through time pays some homage to "ground zero"  jazz and no-one seems to have a problem. Those who like Big Band Era music expect to hear a certain sound. Motown lovers don't want to hear 1960's Folk songs. You either like Country music or you don't.
 
I want Prog to sound like one of the many variations of the Prog Music that is featured and discussed in this site.  I might even like the next evolutionary step that comes in the evolution of Rock and Roll, but that will be something else (i.e., Rock and Roll evolved to Prog which evolves to ?).  It's okay for Prog music to sound like other prog music as long as it is original - it may be bad prog or it may be great prog, but Prog is just that - Prog.
 
I am only guessing of course, but it sounds to me that the member who started this thread is either tired of Prog and looking for his/her next musical style to love, or was never really a fan and can't understand that it is okay for all Prog to have something in common.
 
Long Live Progressive Music, especially that which has its roots in Rock and Roll.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2011 at 07:53
I don't care much for progressiveness per se, making innovative music does not necessarily result in good music, and actually in most cases it does not.
I very much prefer good retro-prog than innovative crap. But if it's innovative and I find it good, well that's great too.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2011 at 14:34
Even with all those chord choices, it also depends on what is being played over the chords. You could play minor stuff over major chords, or a lydian pattern over minor7 chords, or locrian scale over aug7 chords, or any combination of those. Then there are perhaps MILLIONS of different things you could play. And then what about the bass, maybe he's playing the root notes of the chord changes, or is sticking to the tonic while the chords change; there's sooo many possibilities
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2011 at 16:19
It's quite simple, every time a song is recorded and released, the pool of musical possibilities has been drained slightly. Whether the style can be defined as "symphonic prog" or "RIO/avantgarde" or whatever else is irrelevant. People get caught up in these often arbitrary genre names too much.

The term "progressive" can be misleading because it doesn't necessarily mean "moving forward". Was Bob Dylan "progressive rock" when he was innovating in the folk rock field? Of course not. Prog is simply the term that has come to define an integration of popular and art music values. That's the best and most concise definition I can think of on short notice anyway.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2011 at 16:35
Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Even with all those chord choices, it also depends on what is being played over the chords. You could play minor stuff over major chords, or a lydian pattern over minor7 chords, or locrian scale over aug7 chords, or any combination of those. Then there are perhaps MILLIONS of different things you could play. And then what about the bass, maybe he's playing the root notes of the chord changes, or is sticking to the tonic while the chords change; there's sooo many possibilities

And then what about the bass, he MIGHT be playing all of the leads while the guitarist generates a wall of noise through a massive chain of rack effects!!  Meanwhile, the drummer, heavily influenced by Stewart Copeland, plays everything in front of him, including the drum rack piping!!  

That was the essence of my band "What They Say" in Tulsa, Oklahoma, about 1990.  Some of the best lead guitar I ever played was on the four-string bass guitar!  Pity we didn't keep it together, we never released any of it.  Best was a recording of a live show, but the tapes were ripped off/lost by the guitarist.  Pity that!

I've also written & played "classic" style symphonic prog, it's really a lot of fun!  I never claimed to be an innovator (unlike WTS, above), but it is a blast to pretend to be Chris Squire!!  

Good music is good music, period.  Someone once compared "modern" prog as sounding like music you might hear when entering a renaissance festival, and I agree completely.  

More fuzz tone!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2011 at 11:58
Originally posted by Windhawk Windhawk wrote:

The Beatles were imitators. God knows Elvis was. The number of artists that has not been imitating something and have been true innovators can probably be counted on two hands. That's the reality of that particular case, if you want to get real.

Many artists have added their own small touches and nuances, which in return have been picked up by others, with a miniscule development gradually ongoing until someone manage to get a commercial break and will be hailed as innovators when incorporating many such features, their less known influences gradually discovered in retrospect at best.

Same goes for your much heralded examples of Kayo Dot and Opeth. With the difference that their main sources of inspiration are less well known than the ones of The Watch etc. and of a more recent date.

This is bull****.  Elvis was in NO way an innovator.  He took generic rock and roll of the time and changed it in NO (i repeat NO) way and was only more popular because of the racism of the times.  Unless being a honkey is innovative, he did nothing.  

And these conversations about chords have been filled with some of the least accurate information I've ever heard.  Beware.  From the ridiculous claims to the people discrediting chords that are used ALL THE TIME in jazz.  Any jazz musician will tell you that there IS no worthless chord.  If the full diminished (A-C-Eb-Gb) works with the relative major (A#) droning under it, then theres no way any other chord is TOO dissonant (I'd think prog musicians would recognize the value dissonance.)  


Edited by himtroy - April 25 2011 at 12:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2011 at 12:22
Originally posted by himtroy himtroy wrote:

Originally posted by Windhawk Windhawk wrote:

The Beatles were imitators. God knows Elvis was. The number of artists that has not been imitating something and have been true innovators can probably be counted on two hands. That's the reality of that particular case, if you want to get real.

Many artists have added their own small touches and nuances, which in return have been picked up by others, with a miniscule development gradually ongoing until someone manage to get a commercial break and will be hailed as innovators when incorporating many such features, their less known influences gradually discovered in retrospect at best.

Same goes for your much heralded examples of Kayo Dot and Opeth. With the difference that their main sources of inspiration are less well known than the ones of The Watch etc. and of a more recent date.

This is bull****.  Elvis was in NO way an innovator.  He took generic rock and roll of the time and changed it in NO (i repeat NO) way and was only more popular because of the racism of the times.  Unless being a honkey is innovative, he did nothing.  

And these conversations about chords have been filled with some of the least accurate information I've ever heard.  Beware.  From the ridiculous claims to the people discrediting chords that are used ALL THE TIME in jazz.  Any jazz musician will tell you that there IS no worthless chord.  If the full diminished (A-C-Eb-Gb) works with the relative major (A#) droning under it, then theres no way any other chord is TOO dissonant (I'd think prog musicians would recognize the value dissonance.) 


I am with you in general, and specifically with regard to the bolded. Clap
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2011 at 14:39
Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

It's quite simple, every time a song is recorded and released, the pool of musical possibilities has been drained slightly. Whether the style can be defined as "symphonic prog" or "RIO/avantgarde" or whatever else is irrelevant. People get caught up in these often arbitrary genre names too much.

The term "progressive" can be misleading because it doesn't necessarily mean "moving forward". Was Bob Dylan "progressive rock" when he was innovating in the folk rock field? Of course not. Prog is simply the term that has come to define an integration of popular and art music values. That's the best and most concise definition I can think of on short notice anyway.
This is true
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