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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 04:28
Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:


Er, wasn't Dean's post made for the lulz? I may understood it the wrong way, but I tend to believe that Dean wrote something on the verge of parody.
'twas written in humorous style, (not parody as that would be cruel, and I lack the skill for accurate mimicry), but the content was sound and valid.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 04:35
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

My take on the odd time signature theme is that if it's transparently odd it ain't usually successful i.e. stock off the shelf riffage with beats added or subtracted to appear 'difficult' or 'clever' or sophisticated always dies on it's a.r.s.e while a musical idea with phrase length that breathes naturally and musically and resolves itself over 5, 7, 9 etc beats will be hardly noticeable as 'odd'
Dean's Money example is a good one (see also Living In the Past, Tarkus, Solsbury Hill, Dance On a Volcano, Watcher of the Skies etc)
Odd meters are like soccer refs (you don't notice the good ones cos they make the game flow)
Like Roger, I think the value of unusual time signatures is too broad to be a definining criteria - I also think it is neither common enough, they are the exception rather than the rule; nor are they (as you say) instantly noticable... when it works it is the last thing you notice.

Edited by Dean - March 09 2012 at 04:49
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ExittheLemming View Drop Down
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Points: 11415 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 04:44
^ Yep, I'd never to be party to implying 'odd meters' are a defining criteria for Prog (but I heartily loathe the abiding conceit of difficult to play = aesthetic merit)
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Points: 29625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 04:58
I looked it up on the internet:

prog

   [prog] Show IPA verb, progged, prog·ging, noun British Slang .
verb (used without object)
1.
to search or prowl about, as for plunder or food; forage.
noun
2.
food or victuals.

Origin:
1560–70;  origin uncertain

LOL
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prog


Edited by Slartibartfast - March 09 2012 at 04:59
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 04:59
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:


Er, wasn't Dean's post made for the lulz? I may understood it the wrong way, but I tend to believe that Dean wrote something on the verge of parody.
'twas written in humorous style, (not parody as that would be cruel, and I lack the skill for accurate mimicry), but the content was sound and valid.

Whatever it was, it was an immense post. Must have taken you ages.
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Points: 11415 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 05:00
^ that's weird...I'm British and have NEVER heard anyone use the term in that wayConfused
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Points: 29625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 05:06
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

^ that's weird...I'm British and have NEVER heard anyone use the term in that wayConfused


Look it's on the internet. You aren't really British, are you? Wink
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 1708 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 05:18
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

A very informative post by Dean on mensuration but I don't think prog rock or most rock genres for that matter are characterized rigorously.  Many labels are informed purely by subjective perceptions and often reinforced by the media to the point where it becomes redundant to abandon such labels even if it is understood that these labels are not very informative about the nature of the music.  Prog rock is a little better in that regard than such labels as Seattle grunge.

I actually believe characterizing prog strictly through the academic framework is an excellent idea but I don't believe that is the actual practice.  And it is both difficult and unrealistic to put it into practice because rock music is for pleasure and emotional attachment, not intensive academic pursuit.  Prog is not separated from this by such a great degree.  
It isn't a matter of rigor but of consistency. 
 
Music is characterised all the time, even Prog Rock, everyone who listens to a piece of music characterises it whether they want to or not - this is a learned process based upon an intuitive trait inherent in all animals with ears. This is the basis for Iain's "no-one can define it but everyone claims to know it when they see/hear it" - each of us builds a little memory-model of what Prog sounds like based upon the characteristics we pick out of a broad-base of Prog we listen to, guided by some characteristics we've been told that could exist, such as layering and unusual time signatures (if we can be spot them) and blending of various styles and all those other wonderful things mentioned in this and every other thread and article on "what is Prog" - for many these will simply be the triggers that create pleasure or emotion attachment, but those triggers will be there and they will be in other pieces of music that trigger the same response.
 
The problem therein is not that this model is inaccurate, or is the result of rigorous characterisation: the model serves us well as long as we keep it to ourselves and don't compare the results we obtain in using it with sets of results from other people using their own memory-models. To do that we need to identify commonality in all those individual models, and to do that we each need to be able to articulate in relational and universally understandable terms the measures we used in our personal model and the accuracy with which we applied them - so not only do we have to create a consistency in what we use to identify Prog from Grunge and in the way we apply those values, but there has to be consistency in all the personally models used so we end up talking the same language about the same things.
 

I think that may be the most brilliant thing I've ever heard anyone say about this topic.
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 05:41
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

^ that's weird...I'm British and have NEVER heard anyone use the term in that wayConfused


Look it's on the internet. You aren't really British, are you? Wink

He is, but this word is probably obsolete as I have never heard it used either.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 05:46
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

^ that's weird...I'm British and have NEVER heard anyone use the term in that wayConfused


Look it's on the internet. You aren't really British, are you? Wink

He is, but this word is probably obsolete as I have never heard it used either.
I had some for tea last night, with some fava beans and a nice chianti.
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Points: 6898 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 09:48
This is the best book I've read about the genre. it's a sholarly work, but at the same time addresses other asoects of progrock from album covers to why it is hated with a vengeance by certain critics.

I wonder if the Author Edward Macan, a musicologist and universtiy proffesor ever taught any of this or if progrock has ever been considered worthy of academic study. I took music appreciation courses in both CEGEP and university and the genre was loathed by my profs. One even got me to bring albums in so he could demonstrate to the class what wasn't music! However one lady prof who taught a classical music appreciation course was so thrilled by my Hamburger Concerto record that she went out and bought herself a copy. I remember a thread about three years ago that discussed the book here. Maybe someone can dig it up.

  



Edited by Vibrationbaby - March 09 2012 at 09:49
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Points: 16165 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 09:54
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

... 
I think that may be the most brilliant thing I've ever heard anyone say about this topic.
 
Honestly ... this is not "brilliant" ... it's much more than that ... it's REAL ... and that is the issue that arises, when we want a definition for something, but are not willing to discuss the criteria to create that definition. And this gets even more difficult when different countries did it differently ... and had different motivations for doing what they did.
 
So, in some ways the definition has to be simple enough to be difficult. But, for example, specifying it as just odd meters and such ... is like saying that no onther music has odd meters, which is definitly crazy!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 10:08
One question Pedro - why do you keep asserting that we are not willing to discuss this that and the other, usually while we're in the process of actually discussing them?
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Points: 29625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 10:57
I finally figured what's wrong with this site: we don't and English Progressive Rock subgenre, or something like Limey Prog. TongueLOL
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 16165 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 13:30
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

One question Pedro - why do you keep asserting that we are not willing to discuss this that and the other, usually while we're in the process of actually discussing them?
 
Dean, if there was an interest in that question you would have asked me in a forum where I can speak up and out. You're not interested in an answer, I do not believe, and I have given up asking you folks about it, and making suggestions, because "PA" is a closed book ... or should I say  ... a "deadend" database, where all information gets buried and lost.
 
And Wikipedia gets more credit than you guys do ... which in my book is enough to say ... we need to get better at PA ... but no ... you go after Mosh ... with Snow Dog!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Snow Dog View Drop Down
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 13:36
^PA is mainly a reviewing site. Always has been. Never had pretentions to be anything else. One can discuss virtually anything in the forum though, so I don't understand your point.

Edited by Snow Dog - March 09 2012 at 13:44
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 13:51
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

One question Pedro - why do you keep asserting that we are not willing to discuss this that and the other, usually while we're in the process of actually discussing them?
 
Dean, if there was an interest in that question you would have asked me in a forum where I can speak up and out. You're not interested in an answer, I do not believe, and I have given up asking you folks about it, and making suggestions, because "PA" is a closed book ... or should I say  ... a "deadend" database, where all information gets buried and lost.
What is it you do here but speak up and out? I say it is a fair question - you say we are not willing to discuss this that and the other but when I reply to any of your posts you simply ignore them and then weeks later post some oblique post in an unrelated thread making a sarcastic or snide jibe at something I said - like the oft repeated Pop Music snipe that appears in this thread and many other following the original post where I made it (and by taking out of context like you continue to do its meaning is being lost). As Ian has just said - and I have said many times - we are a review site where anyone can write and publish a review of any album we have listed here - we are not an encyclopedia or the definative musicological reference site for all styles of Progressive Rock - we list thousands of bands each with a brief biogrpahy and a complete discography of everything they've released so people can write reviews - that's it - that's all we are, that's all we want to be. The forum is just a playground for people to talk and discuss - we're not going to change the world or become a centre of knowledge and excellence of all things Prog, it's just a forum. 
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

 
And Wikipedia gets more credit than you guys do ... which in my book is enough to say ... we need to get better at PA ... but no ... you go after Mosh ... with Snow Dog!
Until now, I have never "gone after you". Stern Smile But I just asked a simple question about something that irks me, but you are not willing to discuss this, that or the other.
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Snow Dog View Drop Down
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 14:01
^Can I for the record state I also don't go "after you"..not any more and not for a long time. And Dean and I aren't a team.

^there's a song title there.Smile


Edited by Snow Dog - March 09 2012 at 14:03
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Points: 29625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 14:04
Mosh man you are a truly awful fellow...Tongue
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 14:13
....although Dean and I are posting together at present. Pure coincidence!Wink
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