Favourite Dream Theater Epic?

if (parent == window){document.write('< ="text/" media="all">@import "/estilos/kphead.css";');setTimeout("document.getElementById('leader').src='/adv.jsp?ad=leader1&title=' + document.title",2000);}

HarbouringTheSoul wrote: progbethyname wrote: What? You have a T-Shirt!? Well this changes everything. Your opinion matters a lot more now Okay, I might not be qualified to say this because I don't have a Dream Theater t-shirt, but I never quite understood the purpose of the Metropolis 2 story. I perfectly understand what's going on and as this thread informs me it's apparently an allusion to the story of Romulus and Remus, but I have to ask: To what end? Is the story trying to tell us anything? Or did they just write the story for the sake of having a story

Prog Snob wrote: Following your logic, then we should start to question any band ever who decided to write a concept album/rock opera.

Yes, we should. But at least I can tell you that The Wall is an outlet for Roger Waters' personal problems, that Animals is a political analogy and that The Lamb is some ultra messed-up version of Pilgrim's Progress. What is Metropolis Pt. 2 about? From what I understand, its meaning doesn't go any deeper than the key points of the plot: reincarnation and a love triangle.

dtguitarfan wrote: Might as well ask why any story was written - why did Homer write The Odyssey?

For historical, mythological and probably also religious reasons.

HarbouringTheSoul wrote: Prog Snob wrote: Following your logic, then we should start to question any band ever who decided to write a concept album/rock opera. Yes, we should. But at least I can tell you that The Wall is an outlet for Roger Waters' personal problems, that Animals is a political analogy and that The Lamb is some ultra messed-up version of Pilgrim's Progress. What is Metropolis Pt. 2 about? From what I understand, its meaning doesn't go any deeper than the key points of the plot: reincarnation and a love triangle. dtguitarfan wrote: Might as well ask why any story was written - why did Homer write The Odyssey? For historical, mythological and probably also religious reasons.

I think the "reason" for the story can be summed up in Dream Theater's own words from the album:

Where did we come from?
Why are we here?
Where do we go when we die?
What lies beyond
And what lay before?
Is anything certain in life?



Edited by Easy Livin - September 28 2012 at 02:54

infandous wrote: Six Degrees is easily my favorite.  Octavarium a close second.  Actually, The Count of Tuscany would be my number two, if it weren't for the incredibly bad lyrics.  A Change of Seasons would probably be third for me.

I got the triple special edition - which has got the tracks with no Lyrics - County of Tuscany - Instrumental is brilliant.

Prog Snob wrote: And that in and of itself is not suffice? If it just a love story involving reincarnation then that is what it is. Does it need to be "deep" to be worthwhile?

I think it does. I don't care about love triangles and reincarnation by default, so the story has to have something else that makes me interested in those topics. Like, you know, a central message. Or some kind of unique insight on the matter. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect a philosophical treatise. Simple lyrics are fine, and as long as the music is good, I can ignore even the worst batch of lyrics (and these are far from the worst). But if you go the extra mile of making a concept album and placing so much emphasis on the lyrics, you better have something to say.

Prog Snob wrote: The irony here is that many prog fans consider Dream Theater over the top and feel they play without any emotion. So now someone is basically saying their lyrics are somewhat pragmatic and serve no purpose unless the meaning runs deeper?

I don't see the irony. First of all, what is pragmatic about lyrics that have no deeper meaning? And where is the connection between the 'no emotion' accusation and the 'no deeper meaning' accusation? Are lyrics with a deeper meaning less emotional? Even if there were a connection, I don't belong to the group who says Dream Theater play without emotion anyway, so if you're trying to insinuate that what I'm saying is somehow inconsistent or contradicts itself, that's not the case. Just because I criticize a band for something, that doesn't mean I agree with all other criticisms against them.

dtguitarfan wrote: I think the "reason" for the story can be summed up in Dream Theater's own words from the album: [lyrics]

I don't buy it. If the "message" of the album is that the spirit carries on after you die, then isn't it kind of counterproductive that the album ends with the shocking and unexpected death of the protagonist? And yes, I'm being pedantic, but if this were a movie or a book, I doubt it would get very good reviews. There seems to be kind of a double standard when it comes to lyrics.

dtguitarfan wrote: Oh, go boil your bottom, you son of a silly person.  I listen to, read, and watch stories that don't have deep messages all the time, and that doesn't make them bad stories - and I'll bet you do the same.  Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.

As I said above, I don't want deeper meaning in everything. I like my mindless entertainment as much as anybody. The point is that if you go the extra mile of making a story with such a complex narrative, I'd like to have at least some payoff. If this were just a story about a love triangle, I'd think "whatever". But the story is so complex and multilayered that I think "there must be something more to this; this must serve some bigger purpose", only to find out that the complexity of the story was an end to itself. And that kind of makes me feel like I wasted my time trying to understand a story that gave me nothing in return.

dtguitarfan wrote: Also, you're missing the point. The point is, the protagonist, in struggling to understand these memories that aren't his own, comes to a catharsis and realizes there is more to this life, and in so doing finds peace.

I understand that very well, but doesn't the ending destroy all that? The protagonist is finally at peace with himself and not afraid of dying, only to be killed immediately afterwards in a way that is implied to be abrupt and shocking. That's either an unnecessary "haha, fooled you" plot twist or ineffective storytelling. I understand that if a character stops being afraid of dying, it's only consequential that he has to die, if only to prove to the reader/listener/viewer that death is nothing to be afraid of. But Nicholas' death is just the opposite: It's abrupt, it's unsettling and it's followed by nothing but static. If death is not the end, then how come death is the literal end of the album? That only makes me question the sincerity of the earlier message.

Ytse_Jam wrote: HarbouringTheSoul wrote:  there must be something more to this That's where you're wrong. It could be, sometimes, not there must be.

You're quoting what I clearly designated as a personal opinion and representing it out of context as if it were a fact. I never said "every story must have a deeper meaning or else it sucks". I'm saying "this particular story lacks a deeper meaning which would have made the effort I put into deciphering it feel worthwhile to me". And of course, if it wasn't already obvious, this is all my opinion. You are allowed to disagree and I'm not trying to get anybody to feel the same way about the story.

SCENES OF A MEMORY definately has meaning, METROPOLIS PT 1?......well??....word is out on that one for me. Anyway, I'd label METROPOLIS PT 2: scenes of a memory as one of the very best concept albums of all time! It would rank #2 only behind QUEENSRŸCHE's OPERATION MINDCRIME. 😊

.

progbethyname wrote: JS19 wrote: progbethyname wrote: JS19 wrote: Horizons wrote: zeqexes wrote: Alitare wrote: The shortest one because it is over quicker.  ...cannot...compute... It is an opinion that is shared throughout PA. It's also kind of annoying. Yeah lots of people don't like DT, I get it. It's not that funny any more. Doesn't help that a lot of the fans are a bit crazy about them, but still, it's a bit pretentious to have a go at DT every single time they are mentioned... I still enjoy them from time to time, even if they are a little silly sometimes  In answer to the question, I think my favourite would have to be In The Presence Of Enemies. Not a popular opinion because of the dumb lyrics, but I honestly don't expect a lyrical masterpiece when I listen to a DT track  DREAM THEATER are easy one of the most brilliant, technically complex bands in prog and easily the world. People, I feel, make fun of DREAM THEATER because they are just so incredibly technical and some people just don't get it. It is my experience that people often fear and belittle what they don't understand. I call those people closet case idiots. Anyway, just ignor those morons who actually have the audacity to make fun of them. See no, now you've just gone to far. See those 'crazy' DT fans I was talking about. The ones who abandon all logic and reason for their fandom. You sound like one of them... I like DT. I have seen DT live. I have a DT shirt even, but they are not anything that you said. They are a consistent, popular, driving force in the world of prog. They bring a lot of new people into the genre and we have to celebrate them for that, but they aren't the most innovative or technical. Love them or hate them you can't deny they're very important to the prog world right now. darkshade wrote: progbethyname wrote: Snow Dog wrote:   JoeyPS wrote: Octavarium. I LOVE the melancholy beginning segments.    Shine On You Crazy Rudess?  Oh big time!!! Count of Tuscony too. Huge FLOYD influences Actually, that spacey section was inspired by Gershwin''s "Rhapsody In Blue". It just isn't What? You have a T-Shirt!? Well this changes everything. Your opinion matters a lot more now.....ummm.....not technical...not innovative. Well then hey! I can say you sound like hater or a discretator for DT. I mean come on man....not technical??? Logic has been ripped from your prog sphere for sure then. 😒. You tell me who you really like? I would like to know your favourite band. Just curious that's all. We're all friends here 👊

Edited by JS19 - September 27 2012 at 19:14

If Dream Theater are the Godfathers of progressive metal, what does that make Queensryche and Fates Warning, chopped liver?