Progarchives.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Comparing prog from different countries
  FAQ FAQ  Forum SearchSearch  Calendar   Register Register  Login Login

Comparing prog from different countries
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4452 		Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Comparing prog from different countries
    Posted: March 27 2013 at 08:46
Originally posted by Chozal

French Prog seemed pretty desperate from the start (Ange / Magma), much like what is going on nowadays in the global prog scene imo
 
I didn't think so.
 
I thought that Ange was actually rather positive and had a slight internal spiritual/sensitive edge ... "ecoute ... ecoute ... " and it was really well done ... though I still think that this was influenced indirectly by Pink Floyd's "Meddle" album cover with the soundwaves moving through the water onto an ear, it seems! It's a way of saying ... pay attention ... and I don't think you would be saying that if you didn't care, or had something good to say or stand up for!
 
The likes of Alan Stivel, had his own Celtic crusade of his own people in Brittany ... folks have an idea that "Celt" is all in the Brittish Isles, and it never was all from there, though one could say the roots might have been similar. Very political, but I never thought it was not positive, and "The Celtic Symphony" is very positive, with its party like fun and atmosphere in the last side! The Brittish tried to extinguish this just like the French did their counterparts! Nothing new here! Depressing and very sad history all around, if you ask me, though so much of that history has been wiped from the map just like the Natives in America by the supposed more religious white man!
 
Magma, was, to me, no different than something like "Star Trek" ... European style! And it was just fine and musically very good and exciting and different. No matter that its main thrust might have been Carl Orff -- whom it resembles the most in "Carmina Burana", although, the content via the lyrics, as "translated" show something a bit more important than the stuff that goes on in Carl Orff's piece, which is a whole bunch of priests dissing the church and their catechism. By comparison, Magma's is much more interesting and not so vicious ... but I think that some of the Germanic, or revolutionary tone in Magma's work, could have folks concerned, to the point that later, people were comparing that work to Wagner and Nazi this and that, when the cover had them dressed as pigs! Which was very PF and an expression well used in America in the late 60's and early 70's!
 
I have never thought of either one as "desperate" unless your meaning/translation is different than what I think. However, you are comparing 40 years ... ago to today, and I am not sure that is a good thing to do ... when this stuff came up, there were issues ... and those artists addressed them as they could and would ... and today it is different, with one major concession ... too much of the music today, is simply radio/internet music, and a lot of its lyrical content is rather trivial in my estimation, and you can see that ... there is nothing to fight for ... please check the history of the late 60's and early 70's ... so you can see why things were ... so "desperate" as you say ... and I will gladly tell you that today, things are quite peaceful ... to the point of being really annoying ... because the arts suffer when they don't mean a lot to anyone ... and today, no one cares about art, or anything ... it's all pop music and sounds the same -- so folks here post that they want something that sounds like ... which tells you that they are not really listening to the music ... that one sound or effect speaks for them instead ... and as the man once said ... the father and I were one, and since then no one gives a merde anyway! It's better to confuse people than to help!
 
It was not the case, then, by the way.


Edited by moshkito - March 27 2013 at 08:53
Some old holy curmudgeon said from his holy trinity of a chapala ... none of the hits, none of the time ... is always better sex for your and your lover!

www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
Progarchives.com
Advertisement 		Sponsored links (registered users, log in to remove)
 
Chozal View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 01 2011
Location: Melun, France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 139 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chozal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 26 2013 at 16:56
French Prog seemed pretty desperate from the start (Ange / Magma), much like what is going on nowadays in the global prog scene imo
The Infinite Progability Drive, feeding you daily progressive/weird music for just a like <3
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4452 		Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2013 at 09:42
Originally posted by aldri7

... this is much more of an authoritative reply than I could have imagined. :)
  
It's more from my experience in travelling from Portugal to Brazil (1959), then Brazil to Madison, WI (1966) and then Madison to Santa Barbara, CA (1972) and then the Pacific Northwest since 1982. Well travelled in the I-5 corridor, you could say ... and there is a lot of variance in the music, though as you go north there is way too much country and western for my tastes ... and it maybe ok for places like Pendleton, OR with its big Round-Up, but in Seattle, it's like ... out of place ... cows in Seattle? Just like cows in LA?
 
Originally posted by aldri7

...
To see a classical or operatic influence in metal might seem to be stretching it, but it is definitely there. But I agree with your assessment that the italians "are quite classical minded".  Not so much Bard. And that comes through in their metal and prog metal.
 
I can hear this ... but then, that would suggest a "cultured ear" as it is called, of which there are many folks here with similar abilities, though I think that some of them can only discuss rock music, and not the peripheral music around it.
 
The fact of the matter is that when you first learn music, most of the pieces are either simplistic popular music songs, or famous classical bits ... Beethoven's 5th opening is on my piano learning book! Thus, the learning tends to become classical minded.
 
We learned this in an advanced acting class, that had an advanced lab with it, where we had a chance to experiment and try different things ... and you find out real quick that most really good acting is getting away from your own bits and pieces and influences and tendencies ... which is not something that most folks learn about when you are learning to play, on top of the fact that 99 out of 100 teachers do not know what individuality is when playing something ... another important exercise in acting!
 
Sorry to use acting as the example, but to me this is extremely visible in places that love to play "the blues", or "this" or "that" ... and you find out real quick that the music talent is diluted severely and that the individuality suffers because of the rigidity of what you have to do ... and be compared to someone else! ... which means your road to fame is lost for the most part!
 
But I always thought that the rock musicians that did the long cuts and pieces as the "modern composer" of this century, and this is where we all have failed ... we are still looking at too much of this stuff as a hit, a song, a ... anything ... except ... music! and a part of music history ... with one major issue ... the "bard'ic studies are not considered major or important ... why? ... just like pop music ... it is not considered a literary/artistic work because of its stream of conscious and lack of record and written history or form ... which of course, is almost impossible to determine, since it is mostly improvised and has no "form", to speak off as there is no history of it to determine a "form". The history of the arts, basically has never considered those an important part of the history of any of their arts, but it sure made a stronger impression in the 20th century than any other century and I think that "recording" ... is the difference ... all of a sudden, you can see more and learn more about all this stuff, that was difficult to do, then.
 
But in the process, this also shows that there are less differences than we might think ... and I'm not sure that the BARD in the Chinese Imperial days, is any different than the BARD in the Latin American days ... which I think is great. But it also tells you that there is a major discrepancy and understanding on literary and other traditions that are not documented enough for us to even be able to grab a good history off it.
 
And yeah ,.. all that is left is generalizations!


Edited by moshkito - March 20 2013 at 09:54
Some old holy curmudgeon said from his holy trinity of a chapala ... none of the hits, none of the time ... is always better sex for your and your lover!

www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
aldri7 View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie


Joined: January 09 2013
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 80 		Post Options Post Options   Quote aldri7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 20 2013 at 00:27
Originally posted by moshkito

Originally posted by aldri7

...I think though that I was also referring specifically to the classic prog vocal style, and if anyone could trace that to a particular bard poet or singer or whatever, that would be really cool....
...
 
If we could do that, and do it right, then we would have to put Roy Harper and Peter Hammill, in that corner, and then on the left corner Bob Dylan and Neil Young ... and we would end up with a nasty fight ... and disagreements ... but folks on this board thinking Peter H as a bard? ... he is ... the ultimate bard! With or without electricity. Specially when you consider the "stream of consciousness" that is usually a given with most bards ... though we kinda think of them in a more Shakespearean context than otherwise, since no one else has any idea of what a Bard is ... "wordsmith" would be a more apt description, but I'm not sure that the folks in this board were looking for that at all ... would make a more interesting paper for college, though, than some empty, half-baked rock story!
 
But it is not hard to show some of these.
 
Ange- France - Jacques Brel, with a touch of Bertold Brecht and Kurt Weill.
 
The Italians are quite classical minded and the stories and lyrics tend to shape up like the classics do, in the styles that they are written. Kinda makes you think that Italian music came out of a complete rejection and hate for all schools of music, and that things like Banco, Le Orme, PFM, were more a way to show up their teachers, than otherwise ... look ... I have albums to show for my work .. you don't!
 
Spanish - Usually too stuck up on the "story" form that has been a tradition of their music since the 1500's, which came from the bard'ic traditions. However, the best known Spanish writers in the last 300 years, have been, almost exclusively, folks that broke that tradition!!!!! But the rock music and progressive bands in the 70's? ... back to the Bard tradition!
 
English - very folk oriented for my ears, mostly coming from the northern part of the country where most of it originated. I can not sit here and give you details of between Irish and Welsh for example, but there is a very serious bard tradition here of individualism ... which is highly visible in some of their folks. Roy Harper is as good a bard and poet as anyone could ever consider. And in many ways, Kevin Ayers also fits since he was more interested in the words and songs, than he was in the fame, and that is also a very important bard concept. You "point" the wording ... and so forth! And Kevin was magnificent at that, even in fun!
 
American - very territorial, but the 19th and 20th century pretty much killed all the culture that was not white and british based, and it is well known that the "pioneers" that came West pretty much deleted everything they encountered, up to and including the natives. It will take another 100 or 200 years for these to rise up again, I think, unless something new happens, which is more than likely. Rather independent and political. And the 20th century has made sure they are not heard or forgotten, but many folks slipped through the cracks when you see/hear Woodie Guthrie, Pete Seger, and then the Californians of the 50's ... who no one knows, but a huge number of their songs, keep getting played everywhere, in versions that gives them more creedence than otherwise ...
 
Brazil and Argentina - extremely political in origin and history ... and in fact, the popular tradition makes sure that these are not heard or seen, but many folks stand out ... and some of them even stand for their old culture that has been destroyed or killed. Same thing for Argentina, whose indigenous population has been completely wiped out by the westerners that occupied it to steal the richness of the soil.
 
I can probably generalize a couple more from the films and their history ... since it is not too far in tradition and you can see the differences real quick. But you can see, for example, the very harsh divisions in culture in places like (the old) Soviet Union between their many areas ... and the films always showed you many of these and many of the issues at work here and the good, the bad, the ugly ... and the horrific! I can not imagine their music not having the same similar concepts, since their literature sure does!

this is much more of an authoritative reply than I could have imagined. :)

Regarding the italians - I've always tended to regard heavy metal, or at least a sizable segment of it, as being "italian". And especially as it tends to become more prog like with vocalists that are, if not operatic, at least much more so when compared to english prog vocalists. To see a classical or operatic influence in metal might seem to be stretching it, but it is definitely there. But I agree with your assessment that the italians "are quite classical minded". 
Not so much Bard. And that comes through in their metal and prog metal.

Americans have always been by nature somewhat in rebellion against classical music as they were always in rebellion against aristocracy. The classical tradition is strong in Boston and among other wealthy east coast families, in San Francisco, Puget Sound, many parts of the midwest, and among the mormans. Elsewhere.......its blues (or blues derived music) or country or its nothing at all. The dust bowl tradition in music (if there is such a thing) probably influenced California mid 20th century. 

In the US, its interesting to take note though of how classical music thrives in so many households way out on the prairie, far away from any major cities or orchestras. Many pioneers took their 19th century music, their piano and other instruments, etc with them when they headed west and held on to them fiercely. A lot of creativity has come out of that environment - isolated households in Utah, Oklahoma, Iowa, etc where kids grew up surrounded by the classics and doting parents with little else to do but nurture their talent. Jimmy Webb was from Oklahoma, and his talent was truly unique. Another unique talent was Michael Hedges, from Sacramento but who was schooled in Oklahoma. These guys weren't ever influenced by blues or country. They were too isolated from that which is what makes them so interesting. But the other point is that to those in NY, these areas are a "cultural wasteland". I really would like though to try and draw up a list of really gifted individuals from this supposed wasteland, and compare it to a list of the same from NY. 

aldri7
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4452 		Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2013 at 18:04
Originally posted by aldri7

...I think though that I was also referring specifically to the classic prog vocal style, and if anyone could trace that to a particular bard poet or singer or whatever, that would be really cool....
...
 
If we could do that, and do it right, then we would have to put Roy Harper and Peter Hammill, in that corner, and then on the left corner Bob Dylan and Neil Young ... and we would end up with a nasty fight ... and disagreements ... but folks on this board thinking Peter H as a bard? ... he is ... the ultimate bard! With or without electricity. Specially when you consider the "stream of consciousness" that is usually a given with most bards ... though we kinda think of them in a more Shakespearean context than otherwise, since no one else has any idea of what a Bard is ... "wordsmith" would be a more apt description, but I'm not sure that the folks in this board were looking for that at all ... would make a more interesting paper for college, though, than some empty, half-baked rock story!
 
But it is not hard to show some of these.
 
Ange- France - Jacques Brel, with a touch of Bertold Brecht and Kurt Weill.
 
The Italians are quite classical minded and the stories and lyrics tend to shape up like the classics do, in the styles that they are written. Kinda makes you think that Italian music came out of a complete rejection and hate for all schools of music, and that things like Banco, Le Orme, PFM, were more a way to show up their teachers, than otherwise ... look ... I have albums to show for my work .. you don't!
 
Spanish - Usually too stuck up on the "story" form that has been a tradition of their music since the 1500's, which came from the bard'ic traditions. However, the best known Spanish writers in the last 300 years, have been, almost exclusively, folks that broke that tradition!!!!! But the rock music and progressive bands in the 70's? ... back to the Bard tradition!
 
English - very folk oriented for my ears, mostly coming from the northern part of the country where most of it originated. I can not sit here and give you details of between Irish and Welsh for example, but there is a very serious bard tradition here of individualism ... which is highly visible in some of their folks. Roy Harper is as good a bard and poet as anyone could ever consider. And in many ways, Kevin Ayers also fits since he was more interested in the words and songs, than he was in the fame, and that is also a very important bard concept. You "point" the wording ... and so forth! And Kevin was magnificent at that, even in fun!
 
American - very territorial, but the 19th and 20th century pretty much killed all the culture that was not white and british based, and it is well known that the "pioneers" that came West pretty much deleted everything they encountered, up to and including the natives. It will take another 100 or 200 years for these to rise up again, I think, unless something new happens, which is more than likely. Rather independent and political. And the 20th century has made sure they are not heard or forgotten, but many folks slipped through the cracks when you see/hear Woodie Guthrie, Pete Seger, and then the Californians of the 50's ... who no one knows, but a huge number of their songs, keep getting played everywhere, in versions that gives them more creedence than otherwise ...
 
Brazil and Argentina - extremely political in origin and history ... and in fact, the popular tradition makes sure that these are not heard or seen, but many folks stand out ... and some of them even stand for their old culture that has been destroyed or killed. Same thing for Argentina, whose indigenous population has been completely wiped out by the westerners that occupied it to steal the richness of the soil.
 
I can probably generalize a couple more from the films and their history ... since it is not too far in tradition and you can see the differences real quick. But you can see, for example, the very harsh divisions in culture in places like (the old) Soviet Union between their many areas ... and the films always showed you many of these and many of the issues at work here and the good, the bad, the ugly ... and the horrific! I can not imagine their music not having the same similar concepts, since their literature sure does!
Some old holy curmudgeon said from his holy trinity of a chapala ... none of the hits, none of the time ... is always better sex for your and your lover!

www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
aldri7 View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie


Joined: January 09 2013
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 80 		Post Options Post Options   Quote aldri7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2013 at 00:53
Originally posted by moshkito

Originally posted by aginor

I have to be honest abou this, and that is that i also think there is also a influence from bard traditions in prog as well,in both English prog and also Scandinavian, the bards ballad style, as ballads is a different style as folk and classical is different, styles, and ballad style is very popular amon the early prog, the telling of a story, of romantic and epic realations,

to me Ian Anderson ans Peter Gabriel, were to me modern bards (court bards). with their flutes, or lutes, or acoustic guitar.
 
Aginor ... that's way too educated and knowledgeable for a supposedly progressive board. Now stop that or people will think that we are insulting their intelligence!!!!  Confused   Wink 
 

Well I was sort of searching for something like this when I asked what the tradition was that these guys (Ian Anderson, Peter Gabriel) were drawing upon with their prog. So that is good to know, because for me over here in the USA, I can sense these influences but i don't really know them first hand. I think though that I was also referring specifically to the classic prog vocal style, and if anyone could trace that to a particular bard poet or singer or whatever, that would be really cool....

Moshkito - nice to hear from another Portlander. :)  I tend to wonder what percentage of the people on this board are from the UK.  I met a guy on another board from the UK who said he thought the Northwest US was the only part of our country worth visiting. Why? You want the same weather that you have back home?? :)

aldri7
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4452 		Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2013 at 16:22
Originally posted by aginor

I have to be honest abou this, and that is that i also think there is also a influence from bard traditions in prog as well,in both English prog and also Scandinavian, the bards ballad style, as ballads is a different style as folk and classical is different, styles, and ballad style is very popular amon the early prog, the telling of a story, of romantic and epic realations,

to me Ian Anderson ans Peter Gabriel, were to me modern bards (court bards). with their flutes, or lutes, or acoustic guitar.
 
Aginor ... that's way too educated and knowledgeable for a supposedly progressive board. Now stop that or people will think that we are insulting their intelligence!!!!  Confused   Wink 
 
It will be tomorrow of the day after, and Kanye West will be the next bard! .... and Gil Scott Heron, just another nobody!Wink
Some old holy curmudgeon said from his holy trinity of a chapala ... none of the hits, none of the time ... is always better sex for your and your lover!

www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4452 		Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2013 at 16:13
Originally posted by aldri7

...
As I read this, I thought about the military and pictured soldiers marching to a strict beat. I never really thought about that before with respects to music and the upper and lower class. Uniforms helped too..:) You know, I suppose there was a time in our not too distant past when the only music with drums and a strict beat was marching music (fife and drums, etc)   And from there, we evolved and drums became standard in dance music as well. 
 
And so I googled this up. From the 16th to 19th century, military units usually had a drum corp which were used to aid troop movements in the field. it was also called "field music". And from there, marching bands, marching music etc evolved. And so to the aristocratic class, you can easily see how drums came to have an important role in their scheme of things - it was used to keep others in line.
 
And then throw in the fact that drums and drumming has a long history of practice in less developed countries - Africa, Asia, South America. So to the upper class, drumming probably at some point (19th century maybe during the global expansion) came to be associated with tribal cultures, uneducated masses to be controlled etc. And the first use of drums in western culture for dancing - (Strauss wrote waltzes but didn't score them for base drum..:)) - I don't know. Anyone? Was that a black influence in America or were they doing it before then? I kind of wish I had a time machine and I could go back to about 1910 or so, when Professer Hill in the Music Man was railing against ragtime..
Also, consider the evolution of the drug culture in western society which probably sort of paralleled the rise of dancing to the beat, jazz, etc. and then rock.
...
 
Excellent ... I've always tried to put that in perspective if I could, but the history of music is not as good in a book as Jensen's History of Art is ... one of my favorite books of all time.  I really think that we need a couple more folks in here that work/mention history a bit more ... for perspective.
 
Originally posted by aldri7

soggy Oregon ...
 
It's been a dry season, man ... us here in PDX/ Vancouver are about 3 inches behind normal rain fall for this year already with only 8 weeks gone by!  The water table is still an inch up for the water year, though ... so the salmon might still make the trip up the river!


Edited by moshkito - March 02 2013 at 16:20
Some old holy curmudgeon said from his holy trinity of a chapala ... none of the hits, none of the time ... is always better sex for your and your lover!

www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4452 		Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2013 at 15:52
Originally posted by Sumdeus

I think the key with krautrock was that while British bands were trying to make really complex and interesting rock music, the Germans were trying to make something completely their own and were going out of their way to not sound like rock'n'roll and to not sound like anything really
 
All you have to do is hear Edgar Froese's words on the Krautrock special ... you will reword this and understand it a lot better!
Some old holy curmudgeon said from his holy trinity of a chapala ... none of the hits, none of the time ... is always better sex for your and your lover!

www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
Finnforest View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / RPI Specialist

Joined: February 03 2007
Location: 1950s Suburbia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 12135 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Finnforest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 21:16
Originally posted by aldri7

speaking of prog from the USA - when I came here, I pretty much expected that Orchestra Luna, a 70's prog band from Boston, would be listed here. Its not. Sometimes they just go by "Luna". Anyway, they remained active through the 1980's and went through a lot of personnel changes. But they never were more than just a regional band. OVer at Grooveshark I found some of their early tracks which I listened to eagerly since I never had actually heard their music. It sounded almost like firesign theatre put to music. Very different. Raucous, irreverent, but not always to my liking musically. I wonder if anyone else knows of them here. I knew one of their guitar players as I went to hight school with him.

aldri7


 
Interesting....if anyone wants to hear you can Google "Orchestra Luna 1974" and it will pop up the whole album.  Here's a sample
"What do you make of it, Spock?"



Back to Top
aldri7 View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie


Joined: January 09 2013
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 80 		Post Options Post Options   Quote aldri7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 20:55
speaking of prog from the USA - when I came here, I pretty much expected that Orchestra Luna, a 70's prog band from Boston, would be listed here. Its not. Sometimes they just go by "Luna". Anyway, they remained active through the 1980's and went through a lot of personnel changes. But they never were more than just a regional band. OVer at Grooveshark I found some of their early tracks which I listened to eagerly since I never had actually heard their music. It sounded almost like firesign theatre put to music. Very different. Raucous, irreverent, but not always to my liking musically. I wonder if anyone else knows of them here. I knew one of their guitar players as I went to hight school with him.

aldri7


Edited by aldri7 - February 23 2013 at 20:56
Back to Top
lazland View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6494 		Post Options Post Options   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2013 at 13:23
Originally posted by cstack3

Great thread!!  

In the USA, I've noticed that many of our prog bands seem to "ape" Yes overall....including Starcastle (who were friends of mine), Glass Hammer and numerous others.  Very irritating, although sometimes they pull off something that is genuinely innovative.  GH's newest is quite good and not as derivative.  

However, we Yanks do have many very good jazz-rock fusion outfits, and seem to make very good contributions to this genre. Chick Corea and his band's many offshoots (Stanley Clarke, Al Dimeola etc.) comes to mind.  

It's not that we lack the talent, but we don't have good English sensibilities!  Right, Laz?  



Only just seen thisLOL

Now, if only we could all share some of those sensibilities!


In Lazland, life is transient. Prog is permanent.
Back to Top
cstack3 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1799 		Post Options Post Options   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2013 at 14:41
Originally posted by aldri7

Originally posted by brainstormer

I think, for me, this is one of the best topics to ever come up on Prog Archives.  It brings
prog out of the "high schooler" mentality that is frequently found when it's discussed online,
and into something a little bit more like academic musicology. 

thank you..

Since I started this thread, I've found some French prog that I like. I think there were two bands, but I can't remember the name of one now. The other is "Lord of Mushrooms" which is a pretty interesting band to me. Its prog metal but with more adventurous harmonies and some neo prog influences (or was it porcupine tree?).

I would really like prog metal better if they explored darker harmonies more. "The missing Link" and "Circles on the Water" by Lord of Mushrooms get into that realm a little. Prog metal should be fertile ground for diminished scale harmonies or shifting minors etc. It would suit the subject matter if its more gothic anyway. So, hats off to Lord of Mushrooms for not only elevating my attitude towards prog metal but also French prog in general.

aldri7



NebelNest from France are outstanding, look into them!  http://nebelnest.com/

I saw them in Chicago, they were excellent!  Not sure if they are still active, this website is pretty dated.   They seemed to channel the English prog spirit a bit, reminding me more than a little of LTIA era King Crimson.  It was a fantastic show, and I was very happy to meet them (this was about September 1999).
Back to Top
aldri7 View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie


Joined: January 09 2013
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 80 		Post Options Post Options   Quote aldri7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2013 at 09:30
Originally posted by lucas



Regarding France :
Besides Zeuhl (which has very few bands under its umbrella), France has a long history with celtic folk and traditional music (Dan Ar Braz, Malicorne, Alan Stivell, Pierre Bensusan and more recently Seven Reizh).


I took a instant liking to Dan Ar Braz so thank for the recommendation. There is this mix of fusion almost or smooth jazz (acoustic alchemy) with celtic music which I liked a lot. More listening needed here :) They are not listed here, but its not really prog. THis is the type of band I NEVER would have found on my own :) So thanks to the forums....

aldri7
Back to Top
Guldbamsen View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Broom cupboard
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7306 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2013 at 08:50
I am going to go off on my own tangent here, as it seems I probably should've been here for the start....

Anyway, I find some of the South American/Portuguese prog bands to have a similar quality to them as found in the RPI scene from around the same time, which translates into the start 70s or something to that effect.

Here's Quarteto 1111, which I absolutely adore. It wasn't until I looked the album up on PA I found out about it not being an RPI release:
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
Back to Top
aldri7 View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie


Joined: January 09 2013
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 80 		Post Options Post Options   Quote aldri7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2013 at 08:41
Originally posted by Metalmarsh89

 

You could make a similar argument from the other side of the spectrum as well. For me, my liking of prog music came from a disinterest in popular music. I know absolutely nothing about classical music, not because I have no interest, but because I haven't been exposed to it or raised around it.

Back in 1970 or so, I think there were a lot of people, myself included, who were disinterested in the popular music that was coming out at the time. I really was looking for an alternative to bluesy rock which was all the rage then. And so along comes "Yes" and it was like the perfect answer to all my prayers. 

Yes and Genesis, etc at the time tapped into something,  a desperate need I think - I mean there must have been lots of people like me who were dissatisfied and not buying Jimi Hendrix albums. 

I'm listening to "Lord of Mushrooms" as I write this (getting back to my earlier post). Man, these guys go way beyond prog metal where they are listed here. I'd suggest a different category for them, maybe eclectic prog or heavy prog. I don't know, but its just that guys are going to miss some great music if they pass over prog metal on their way to other categories!

And now,  I am going to make what is probably a pretty ridiculous assertion. I hope you will pardon me anyway but I have this strange need  to be able to find some French prog that pays homage to French classical music. I guess its because I like French classical music so much (it was played in my house a lot when I was a kid growing up)...

And so, at about the 2:00 minute mark in Lord of the Mushroom's "Warmth in the Wilderness", the melody ascends and goes through several unexpected chord changes as it climbs to a "B". And when I first heard it, I immediately flashed back to Ravel's "Daphnis et Chloe" which doesn't sound anything like this really, but at the same time  - there is this ascending passage there also right before the return to the main theme which also twists through a series of unexpected chord changes and.........could it be......?  Why would I have flashed back to Ravel? But that I did that really gets me admiring this band, whether or not they were consciously thinking of Ravel or maybe they don't know squat about Ravel. :)  I haven't a clue, but its fun doing this kind of detective work anyway..

And I love having Spotify now on my computer. :) I can call up Daphnis et Chloe and play it alongside Lord of Mushrooms at the click of a mouse......bliss....and the passage I referred to in Ravel comes at about the 2:45 mark compared to the 2:00 mark for "Warmth in the Wilderness". Given this version of Daphnis et Chloe is played on the slow side, then the two passages occur at about the same point in the music. And to put the icing on the cake, Ravel's passage also ascends to a "B" !!

aldri7


Edited by aldri7 - February 22 2013 at 09:11
Back to Top
aldri7 View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie


Joined: January 09 2013
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 80 		Post Options Post Options   Quote aldri7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2013 at 08:26
Originally posted by brainstormer

I think, for me, this is one of the best topics to ever come up on Prog Archives.  It brings
prog out of the "high schooler" mentality that is frequently found when it's discussed online,
and into something a little bit more like academic musicology. 

thank you..

Since I started this thread, I've found some French prog that I like. I think there were two bands, but I can't remember the name of one now. The other is "Lord of Mushrooms" which is a pretty interesting band to me. Its prog metal but with more adventurous harmonies and some neo prog influences (or was it porcupine tree?).

I would really like prog metal better if they explored darker harmonies more. "The missing Link" and "Circles on the Water" by Lord of Mushrooms get into that realm a little. Prog metal should be fertile ground for diminished scale harmonies or shifting minors etc. It would suit the subject matter if its more gothic anyway. So, hats off to Lord of Mushrooms for not only elevating my attitude towards prog metal but also French prog in general.

aldri7




Edited by aldri7 - February 22 2013 at 08:30
Back to Top
brainstormer View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 20 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 362 		Post Options Post Options   Quote brainstormer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2013 at 11:24
I think, for me, this is one of the best topics to ever come up on Prog Archives.  It brings
prog out of the "high schooler" mentality that is frequently found when it's discussed online,
and into something a little bit more like academic musicology. 
--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net


Back to Top
Metalmarsh89 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 15 2013
Location: Oregon, USA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 318 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Metalmarsh89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2013 at 10:52
Originally posted by aldri7

Originally posted by aldri7

 That means that if its Russian, its Shostakovich or Prokofiev that does it for me, not a prog band from there

I'm going to quote myself here - because I think I may have answered my own question.

That country's with strong classical music traditions don't have better prog is maybe because they simply don't need it. Why would you need a substitute when you can have the real thing? Prog to many is really a rejection of standard classical music - I mean, it honors it  compared to rock'n roll, but is also says "I want to substitute a music that speaks to me more directly, uses more contemporary instruments, etc" i.e "I like classical music but its not my primary language and culture so I want to remake it in my own image". But the traditionalists would have no interest in that. They would say "if you want to make sophisticated music, why not just score it for an orchestra? So I would think in those countries that maybe too many would see prog as, at best, a cheap substitute, or, at worst, a clumsy attempt from a different part of society to challenge the status quo, to say "we can do it too, and sell even more albums than you".  And would the most musically gifted in those countries feel that writing for a prog band instead of an orchestra or other ensemble would be a waste of their precious talent? Maybe. This would tend to syphon off talent and water down the prog. So I'm glad then that there is great prog out there and countries where it has broad support from all levels of society.

aldri7







You could make a similar argument from the other side of the spectrum as well. For me, my liking of prog music came from a disinterest in popular music. I know absolutely nothing about classical music, not because I have no interest, but because I haven't been exposed to it or raised around it.
Back to Top
Metalmarsh89 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 15 2013
Location: Oregon, USA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 318 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Metalmarsh89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2013 at 10:42
Originally posted by aldri7

And then throw in the fact that drums and drumming has a long history of practice in less developed countries - Africa, Asia, South America. So to the upper class, drumming probably at some point (19th century maybe during the global expansion) came to be associated with tribal cultures, uneducated masses to be controlled etc. And the first use of drums in western culture for dancing - (Strauss wrote waltzes but didn't score them for base drum..:)) - I don't know. Anyone? Was that a black influence in America or were they doing it before then? I kind of wish I had a time machine and I could go back to about 1910 or so, when Professer Hill in the Music Man was railing against ragtime..


Drums have played a major role in Native American music and dance for centuries, but Government views and relations with Native Americans lead me to believe that is not where they get the inspiration for these steady beats you speak of. I don't know much about Native American culture, but because drums and vocals are often the primary instruments used, I would believe they do all sorts of interesting, fun things with it as opposed to a steady tapping.

I would be more inclined to believe that while drumming could have been primarily adapted from these other lesser developed countries you speak of, I think that modern western culture merely adopted such habits from the eastern cultures who expanded west hundreds of years ago (Spain, France, England, etc.).
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.69
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.