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Topic Closedstop the "Neo" prog label ?

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Andy Webb View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: stop the "Neo" prog label ?
    Posted: January 27 2013 at 17:29
^I trust your judgment. Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2013 at 16:58
Thanks guys. Three people derailing a thread that had already run its course, two of whom obviously felt they did something to the third that in the end turns out to be done by a fourth....

If I still had admin rights, I'd put a lock on it right now.


Even prog is rooted in the blues, at some point...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2013 at 16:43
Originally posted by Roland113

*sigh* arguing with Zealots is kind of like swimming in Macaroni and Cheese.  It's a lot of effort for almost no reward and you still end up covered in goo.

Ivan, 

I reject your ability to speak for my generation.

It is absolutely your right to hate the album, I don't dispute your hatred of it.  As a lawyer though, I would expect you to not simply discount eye witness accounts of an event or an era.  Seriously man, I'm not lying to you, it had an influence on people that are ten years younger.

With that being said, I'm done arguing the point.


Ivan,

I apologize for calling you a zealot.  My original frustration with the Invisible Touch conversation was the lack of respect for those that like the CD but I should not have resorted to name calling or even anything remotely along those lines.  Please accept my sincere apology.

Tom
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2013 at 16:02
I'll have you know I lost my sense of humour  in a mining accident. Tragic it was. We never talk about it. I blame Maggie.
Coldness doth get away with the badness.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2013 at 15:54
Over-sensitivity is rife in this thread.

Certain people need to leave their respective egos at the front door and remember to fetch their sense of humour instead.





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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2013 at 15:32

Love Beach didn't sell 15 million copies - ergo - most people agree that it wasn't very good. By saying that it was trash is not like saying 15,000,000 people have no appreciation of music.

 
Hopefully someone out there can see the distinction without getting their panties in a wad.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2013 at 15:27
As this thread has run it's course maybe a closure would be acceptable to everyone?
Coldness doth get away with the badness.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2013 at 15:26
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

 

Today there's a great example how this is personal and from where personal attacks come from (not from you), this post

Originally posted by Snow Dog

I guess he brings it on himself. And zealot is a pretty good description.

Is personal, it ends saying that i deserve whatever some people do and that I have to accept their attacks or remain mute, but seems only Finn and i noticed it.

If I had said that, surely there would be a scandal, but what is considered a sin when i do it, it's normal when others do it.

I'll just have to accept this, but won't keep silent.

IvŠn

PS: Thanks to Finn and a couple Collaborators who sent me their PM's, I know I'm not imagining things as some believe 

It isn't a personal attack. Maybe I should have said perhaps rather than I guess. But I'm just stating a possibilty that your posting style maybe the reason. And I didn't call you a zealot, but as it has been said by another it seems to me not uneasonable. Perhaps we are both zealots.

If you take this as an attack I can only repeat it wasn't.
I often defend Love Beach btw but it isn't as easily defendable. I like it because I like ELP. Thats it really


Edited by Snow Dog - January 27 2013 at 15:28
Coldness doth get away with the badness.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2013 at 15:18
Originally posted by lazland

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

Originally posted by Lazland

To slam such albums, as I have said many times on the site before, is intellectually and artistically lazy.

Why?

It's OK if you like it, everybody has a taste, but it's ok to hate it and believe it's an aberration without the need of calling those who disagree intellectually lazy..I bashed the album hundreds of times, because I believe it deserves bashing, but never called names to those that love it.

IvŠn


Ivan, my dear fellow, you always seem to want the last word, but not this time. I have pasted above your initial response to my post, which Ian, rightly, followed up with a post correctly saying that I did not call YOU intellectually lazy.

It is perfectly okay to hate this album. I am getting there myself now after all this. You said above about calling names. I did not call you, or anyone else, names. I was making what I regard as being a perfectly valid point, generically, that I regard the attitudes regarding Collins era Genesis as being intellectually lazy, a comment I stand by utterly. This is NOT the same as calling somebody names.

I am utterly fed up with all of this, so let me make something very clear. You live in Peru. I live in Wales. We have never met, nor will we ever. Without sounding rude, and this is not meant to be rude, you are fairly well down on my list of personal priorities. So, let me make this clear. Unless I name you, my comments on this site are not directed at you.

I know you, Jim, and others will not believe this (and I have got to the stage where I barely care anymore), the Revolutionise the Site thread, initially, had nothing to do with you personally. I was expressing an opinion on how I believe we can improve things. I do accept that it turned personal, and for that, I can only apologise. You do not, however, help yourself sometimes. Neither do I, for that matter.

Enough. Please leave this as the last word. You have an apology, and an assurance. 

For God's sake

Where did I say your comment was directed to me?

I simply disagreed with your comment...Is that so hard to understand?

I believe anybody can bash the album they want, as long they don't insult calling it trash or crap, but how many times has Love Beach been bashed and nobody says a word?.

That was my whole point.

IvŠn

BTW: I read your personal attacks in your thread, but i didn't made anything, as a fact I let you say whatever you wanted and never wrote in your thread, despite I believe i have a valuable opinion in that issue, being one of the members who has stayed in a team longer.

But if I had posted anything, at least two members (one is you) would had turned it even more personal).

I'm trying to avoid problems, but when they follow me, i respond.

I accept your apology and hope this issue ends her, send whatever bands you feel to Symphonic, they will be evaluated by the team,  


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 27 2013 at 15:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2013 at 15:01
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M

Originally posted by Lazland

To slam such albums, as I have said many times on the site before, is intellectually and artistically lazy.

Why?

It's OK if you like it, everybody has a taste, but it's ok to hate it and believe it's an aberration without the need of calling those who disagree intellectually lazy..I bashed the album hundreds of times, because I believe it deserves bashing, but never called names to those that love it.

IvŠn


Ivan, my dear fellow, you always seem to want the last word, but not this time. I have pasted above your initial response to my post, which Ian, rightly, followed up with a post correctly saying that I did not call YOU intellectually lazy.

It is perfectly okay to hate this album. I am getting there myself now after all this. You said above about calling names. I did not call you, or anyone else, names. I was making what I regard as being a perfectly valid point, generically, that I regard the attitudes regarding Collins era Genesis as being intellectually lazy, a comment I stand by utterly. This is NOT the same as calling somebody names.

I am utterly fed up with all of this, so let me make something very clear. You live in Peru. I live in Wales. We have never met, nor will we ever. Without sounding rude, and this is not meant to be rude, you are fairly well down on my list of personal priorities. So, let me make this clear. Unless I name you, my comments on this site are not directed at you.

I know you, Jim, and others will not believe this (and I have got to the stage where I barely care anymore), the Revolutionise the Site thread, initially, had nothing to do with you personally. I was expressing an opinion on how I believe we can improve things. I do accept that it turned personal, and for that, I can only apologise. You do not, however, help yourself sometimes. Neither do I, for that matter.

Enough. Please leave this as the last word. You have an apology, and an assurance. 


In Lazland, life is transient. Prog is permanent.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2013 at 14:43
Originally posted by lazland

Originally posted by Finnforest

Tony, it's not just this thread.  Certain people have a go at Ivan almost any time they see fit and I'm tired of it, so I briefly said as much.  I don't care what you do with this thread.  I said all I had to say here and in the equally divisive "Revolution" thread. 


I have not had a go at Ivan. I repeat, my comments about Genesis and intellectually lazy had bugger all to do with him. Believe  me, if they were, I would be more than happy to say so.




Never said your comments were on me (in this case) Lazland, i just voiced my opinion, but seems I'm not allowed to do that.

As anybody must have noticed, in the last year i have posted 10% of my usual number of posts, because I'm uncomfortable, and most of my posts are about team issues.

Today there's a great example how this is personal and from where personal attacks come from (not from you), this post

Originally posted by Snow Dog

I guess he brings it on himself. And zealot is a pretty good description.

Is personal, it ends saying that i deserve whatever some people do and that I have to accept their attacks or remain mute, but seems only Finn and i noticed it.

If I had said that, surely there would be a scandal, but what is considered a sin when i do it, it's normal when others do it.

I'll just have to accept this, but won't keep silent.

IvŠn

PS: Thanks to Finn and a couple Collaborators who sent me their PM's, I know I'm not imagining things as some believe 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 27 2013 at 14:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2013 at 14:33
Originally posted by Finnforest

Tony, it's not just this thread.  Certain people have a go at Ivan almost any time they see fit and I'm tired of it, so I briefly said as much.  I don't care what you do with this thread.  I said all I had to say here and in the equally divisive "Revolution" thread. 


I have not had a go at Ivan. I repeat, my comments about Genesis and intellectually lazy had bugger all to do with him. Believe  me, if they were, I would be more than happy to say so.




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2013 at 14:18
Tony, it's not just this thread.  Certain people have a go at Ivan almost any time they see fit and I'm tired of it, so I briefly said as much.  I don't care what you do with this thread.  I said all I had to say here and in the equally divisive "Revolution" thread. 



Edited by Finnforest - January 27 2013 at 14:27


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2013 at 14:16
Originally posted by Tony R

Sigh.

Shall I move this to the children's forum?

Hang on a second, Tony. I have just sent a PM to Jim on similar lines. I have been accused of something which was rather unfair and most definitely wrong, and I have the right to say so. I was NOT having a go at anyone in particular, and I was accused of this.

I am getting rather bloody fed up with this. That is not acting like a child. If you want me to, then I will.

Am I not able to express my opinion on Genesis, the site, or anything else without being accused of being personal and nasty? I wouldn't mind so much if that is what I was doing. And, yes, whilst I have made personal remarks regarding my view of the site (although always anonymised), the comments made here about Genesis were absolutely, utterly, representing  my opinion about Prog Archives as a collective, not Ivan, or any other individual.

I am not a nasty person, and I am beginning to feel as if this is how you lot regard me.

Well, now I will make a pitch for the children's forum. Bollocks to the lot of you.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2013 at 14:10
Sigh.

Shall I move this to the children's forum?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2013 at 13:54
Okay, once again we seem to have a bashing session, so let me say one thing absolutely clearly (and add here that Ian was making the same point, very well, if I might add).

My comments about intellectually and artistically lazy bashing Genesis post Hackett were NOT aimed at Ivan, or indeed anyone else on a personal level. Okay? If I want to have a go at someone, I am more than capable of doing so, as you all know, and it has got me into more than a little bit of trouble lately. This was NOT a go.

This has always been my opinion about Genesis on this site. I have repeated it more than a few times. Indeed, I remember when I first joined the site, I made a similar comment, and received a very nice response from Raffaella, someone who I miss a great deal here.

The point that Tom made was a well made one. From my own experience, I can testify to it, and that is that many people latched onto the Gabriel era by listening to Collins era first.

The point I made was that we have a lot of Collins bashing here, and most of it is utterly without any intellectual credibility whatsoever. He "sold out". No he didn't. For a start, most of this era was a collaborative process, meaning that Banks and Rutherford were equally "culpable". Secondly, Genesis had a hit single with I Know What I Like on 1973, under Gabriel. Before that, they were massive in Italy and Belgium especially. They made hit records. They released singles. They wanted, and got, success. Good luck to them too.

Nobody is asking Ivan, or anyone else for that matter, to like Invisible Touch. I happen to rather enjoy it, not as much as Duke or Abacab, for example, but I still enjoy it. I do not expect others to. And this is not an accusation of zealotry, purity, or any other "ity". It is just my opinion, and it rattles me to see so many comments regarding this era, which I Love, without any other explanation that it is "pop", or a "sell out". As long as that opinion is expressed properly, what is wrong with that?

I repeat. My comments were not directed at any particular individual. It was a global statement expressing my personal opinion.

I was looking at Progressive Ears last night, for a few hours. Also, the DPRP site, which is wonderful. The way things are going here, I might well spend a lot more time there (and, yes, I do accept my personal responsibility in that).


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2013 at 13:42
You can't be talking about me surely?Confused

Now I'm getting paranoid...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2013 at 13:34
Originally posted by Finnforest

Zealot was one...but "names" aren't really the issue so much as the way he is treated. 

Ivan is polite and even tempered in the forums.  Those who serially oppose him, seemingly for sport, are the ones who cause these tiring tennis matches. 

Thank you Finn

I started to think I was crazy and that nobody noticed that when I post, the same names appear always.

IvŠn


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 27 2013 at 13:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2013 at 13:34
I guess he brings it on himself. And zealot is a pretty good description.

Edited by Snow Dog - January 27 2013 at 13:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2013 at 13:32
Zealot was one...but "names" aren't really the issue so much as the way he is treated. 

Ivan is polite and even tempered in the forums.  Those who serially oppose him, seemingly for sport, are the ones who cause these tiring tennis matches. 


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