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Joined: January 04 2007
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Posted: March 27 2013 at 09:08
JS19 wrote:
Billy 7 wrote:
Nik Mason = poor drummer who got lucky
Pink Floyd are good despite him, not because of him. he's not a bad drummer. Just an extremely simplistic one. Keeps time and nothing more.
I can't help thinking that when this is said, that one is not listening to the whole of what is called ... "Pink Floyd" ... for folks to have an idea of how well, they supported each other. And sometimes, the simplest, or softest, touch ... is all that is needed ... but Mike P would never know or understand that!
In Brazil that is the difference between "batucada" and "drumming", btw ... and it is an apt description for rock'n'roll and most prog and popular music ... it's just "batucada" ... or simply, as in the Carnival, ... street druming! So ... yeah ... Dean is right ... a lot of this stuff is just popular music!
Edited by moshkito - March 27 2013 at 09:14
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Joined: September 28 2008
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Posted: March 30 2013 at 09:51
moshkito wrote:
JS19 wrote:
Billy 7 wrote:
Nik Mason = poor drummer who got lucky
Pink Floyd are good despite him, not because of him. he's not a bad drummer. Just an extremely simplistic one. Keeps time and nothing more.
I can't help thinking that when this is said, that one is not listening to the whole of what is called ... "Pink Floyd" ... for folks to have an idea of how well, they supported each other. And sometimes, the simplest, or softest, touch ... is all that is needed ... but Mike P would never know or understand that!
You have no idea what you are talking about here, or you just haven't listened to enough Mike P. He is a bad drummer in a good band? Maybe, he is not the best in the world, right. But he is bad? No way. He is very much versatile too. It's enough if you listen (which you certainly didn't) to his recordings outside DT, with Osi, Transatlantic, LTE, Neal Morse, Flying Colors,
Hammer of the Gods (Led Zep tribute), Cygnus and the Sea Monsters (Rush tribute), Amazing Journey (The Who tribute), Yellow Matter Custard (The Beatles tribute) etc, he was a guest drummer on the 2005 Fates Warning tour, he did great, and he did play Set the controls... with Osi, which you mentioned earlier he wouldn't be able to do:
Sure, it's not the original, but it ain't BAD. I would be curious to hear what Nick Mason could do with for example Erotomania or Scarred, though he is not a bad drummer too. Just like Charlie Watts (I can't be satisfied is very very cool), Mick Avory, John Densmore or Tico Torres, who all have been criticized for being too simple or basic. I think they're okay to the music.
Edited by Lynx33 - March 30 2013 at 11:19
Mindez elmúlt. Ma már tudom köszönteni a szépséget.
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Posted: March 30 2013 at 11:23
^^^ Ah, but he does make full use of the snare even here at around 4:20. Pedro can be pretty opinionated but I wouldn't discount his powers of observation. And something Mason achieves on the Live at Pompeii version that I didn't hear here is....he actually creates a sense of melody on drums from around 3:40 that blends very well with the 'actual' melody being played at that point. I am not going to say it is impossible for some other drummer to produce that effect but it is certainly something I've heard rarely, if at all, from any drummer. I had never noticed this before but I was piqued by Pedro's comments on Set Controls and wanted to find out for myself.
I also notice that Mason plays very lightly, though quickly, from 3:40 through around 4:20 and doesn't step on the gas at all. I miss these details in Portnoy's work...not only this track but many other covers that I've heard him play. Sure, he's got monstrous chops and devour complexity in a trice but it takes skill to produce details on an instrument (or with the voice, for that matter) too. I interpret Pedro's unfavourable comments on Portnoy vis-a-vis Mason in that light. By the way, I wouldn't even want to hear Mason attempt Erotomania.
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Posted: March 30 2013 at 18:19
Any thoughts on Mick Fleetwood? I knew a drummer who thought Mick was less than impressive....I don't think he's bad really, maybe a bit unimaginative?
Joined: March 19 2008
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Posted: March 30 2013 at 19:30
Finnforest wrote:
Any thoughts on Mick Fleetwood? I knew a drummer who thought Mick was less than impressive....I don't think he's bad really, maybe a bit unimaginative?
I think he's lovely. Very subtle. But from the discussion here I've come to realise that most people don't appreciate that. Same with Nick Mason, a drummer that chose not to out-stage the rest of the gang.
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Posted: March 30 2013 at 22:36
^^^ I think I mentioned it before, there's a tendency to dismiss subtlety or nuance as something 'subjective' or 'personal' and therefore not very important in rating a drummer. That is not the case. How those nuances affect you may be personal but the musician has to do something tangible to produce a subtle variation or inflection. From my limited experience of singing, I know that that is NOT something anybody can do and it is not at all necessary that somebody who is technically well equipped would have a flair for nuance. It takes a complete master of his craft to do something that is both technically demanding and is also very expressive.
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Posted: March 31 2013 at 13:13
Finnforest wrote:
Any thoughts on Mick Fleetwood? I knew a drummer who thought Mick was less than impressive....I don't think he's bad really, maybe a bit unimaginative?
Should read his own book out ... he doesn't think he's a good drummer and too often he was so far out of it, that he didn't know the difference, but he's not bad ... he's fun to watch, and he is clean ... very clean when they do their own material!
Edited by moshkito - April 01 2013 at 15:01
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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Posted: March 31 2013 at 14:03
rogerthat wrote:
^^^ Ah, but he does make full use of the snare even here at around 4:20. Pedro can be pretty opinionated but I wouldn't discount his powers of observation. And something Mason achieves on the Live at Pompeii version that I didn't hear here is....he actually creates a sense of melody on drums from around 3:40 that blends very well with the 'actual' melody being played at that point. I am not going to say it is impossible for some other drummer to produce that effect but it is certainly something I've heard rarely, if at all, from any drummer. I had never noticed this before but I was piqued by Pedro's comments on Set Controls and wanted to find out for myself.
I also notice that Mason plays very lightly, though quickly, from 3:40 through around 4:20 and doesn't step on the gas at all. I miss these details in Portnoy's work...not only this track but many other covers that I've heard him play. Sure, he's got monstrous chops and devour complexity in a trice but it takes skill to produce details on an instrument (or with the voice, for that matter) too. I interpret Pedro's unfavourable comments on Portnoy vis-a-vis Mason in that light. By the way, I wouldn't even want to hear Mason attempt Erotomania.
Thx ... I just want to point out ... the term that is used in Brazil for the street drummers, and the drunk, and fun folks, during Carnaval, for example. How rock'n'roll that really is, don't you think?
That is known as "batucada" and is not considered drumming, or have any attempt whatsoever, to even be considered music. But it can, and follows a beat and has a certain amount of time and place for certain things to happen withit.
A lot of rock drumming, for me, is like that. I do not see Mike P as good a "musician" as Pierre Moerlin, for example, who was a well known and educated percussionist, before he was a "drummer" ... and you can see the difference in the "Exposed" DVD ... Mike is nowhere near that capable, even if Tubular Bells is rather mechanical and probably easier for most drummers!
Mason wouldn't do Erotomania ... he's more jazz minded than that.
Edited by moshkito - March 31 2013 at 14:04
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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Posted: March 31 2013 at 20:32
moshkito wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
^^^ Ah, but he does make full use of the snare even here at around 4:20. Pedro can be pretty opinionated but I wouldn't discount his powers of observation. And something Mason achieves on the Live at Pompeii version that I didn't hear here is....he actually creates a sense of melody on drums from around 3:40 that blends very well with the 'actual' melody being played at that point. I am not going to say it is impossible for some other drummer to produce that effect but it is certainly something I've heard rarely, if at all, from any drummer. I had never noticed this before but I was piqued by Pedro's comments on Set Controls and wanted to find out for myself.
I also notice that Mason plays very lightly, though quickly, from 3:40 through around 4:20 and doesn't step on the gas at all. I miss these details in Portnoy's work...not only this track but many other covers that I've heard him play. Sure, he's got monstrous chops and devour complexity in a trice but it takes skill to produce details on an instrument (or with the voice, for that matter) too. I interpret Pedro's unfavourable comments on Portnoy vis-a-vis Mason in that light. By the way, I wouldn't even want to hear Mason attempt Erotomania.
Thx ... I just want to point out ... the term that is used in Brazil for the street drummers, and the drunk, and fun folks, during Carnaval, for example. How rock'n'roll that really is, don't you think?
That is known as "batucada" and is not considered drumming, or have any attempt whatsoever, to even be considered music. But it can, and follows a beat and has a certain amount of time and place for certain things to happen withit.
A lot of rock drumming, for me, is like that. I do not see Mike P as good a "musician" as Pierre Moerlin, for example, who was a well known and educated percussionist, before he was a "drummer" ... and you can see the difference in the "Exposed" DVD ... Mike is nowhere near that capable, even if Tubular Bells is rather mechanical and probably easier for most drummers!
Mason wouldn't do Erotomania ... he's more jazz minded than that.
I have never heard batucada but great tabla players can also create a sense of melody on their instrument and that is how I related to it when I heard Mason do the same.
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Posted: March 31 2013 at 21:09
rogerthat wrote:
^^^ Ah, but he does make full use of the snare even here at around 4:20. Pedro can be pretty opinionated but I wouldn't discount his powers of observation. And something Mason achieves on the Live at Pompeii version that I didn't hear here is....he actually creates a sense of melody on drums from around 3:40 that blends very well with the 'actual' melody being played at that point. I am not going to say it is impossible for some other drummer to produce that effect but it is certainly something I've heard rarely, if at all, from any drummer. I had never noticed this before but I was piqued by Pedro's comments on Set Controls and wanted to find out for myself. I also notice that Mason plays very lightly, though quickly, from 3:40 through around 4:20 and doesn't step on the gas at all. I miss these details in Portnoy's work...not only this track but many other covers that I've heard him play. Sure, he's got monstrous chops and devour complexity in a trice but it takes skill to produce details on an instrument (or with the voice, for that matter) too. I interpret Pedro's unfavourable comments on Portnoy vis-a-vis Mason in that light. By the way, I wouldn't even want to hear Mason attempt Erotomania.
I very much agree with you here. I had noticed this thing you mention about Mason drumming with some sort of melody on Set the Controls from Live at Pompeii, and I really love it... and he did that on some other songs from the early albums. As far as I understand it, I heard the same thing on a few songs with Carl Palmer too. It's too bad both Mason and Palmer stopped doing that, I'd love to have heard this kind of drumming more often in other bands too. Oh yeah, and it was because of this "melody" kind of drumming that I sometimes feel I actually like Carl Palmer better than Bruford himself.
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Posted: April 01 2013 at 09:17
Dellinger wrote:
I very much agree with you here. I had noticed this thing you mention about Mason drumming with some sort of melody on Set the Controls from Live at Pompeii, and I really love it... and he did that on some other songs from the early albums. As far as I understand it, I heard the same thing on a few songs with Carl Palmer too. It's too bad both Mason and Palmer stopped doing that, I'd love to have heard this kind of drumming more often in other bands too. Oh yeah, and it was because of this "melody" kind of drumming that I sometimes feel I actually like Carl Palmer better than Bruford himself.
That's interesting, can you recall some songs of ELP where he's done this? Never noticed this before in Palmer's work so I am curious to find out.
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Posted: April 01 2013 at 15:22
rogerthat wrote:
...
I have never heard batucada but great tabla players can also create a sense of melody on their instrument and that is how I related to it when I heard Mason do the same.
The term, is sort of ... "slang" ... as a way to say ... it's just fun drumming ... just like a drum circle when you went to get stoned (Snow Dog never did that!) with the Grateful Dead folks ... it was NOT designed to be music ... it was designed to be fun and such.
For me, I took the liberty of spreading that a bit more ... into the rock music area, specially the "pop music" side of things, where it is always the same and the talent is defined in who can break the 759th beat by skipping it ... and nothing else but some mechanical something or other ... that is NOT what all music is about. In fact ... try checking out the mechanical side of Stravinsky ... or Beethoven ... and you will have a hard time. It might have been "mechanical" in the Bach era, but I honestly believe that is more a historical mis-conception than a reality ... so you gonna suggest that no one in history ever sang or played not only out of tune, but created something that was odd and sounded even stranger? ... see my point? ... all of a sudden the "mechanics" is what you give KIDS to learn music ... musicianship, is way beyond the mere, and simple mechanics, and too many folks are taking advantage of the process and think themselves better musicians simply because it sold 10 more pieces than you or I! Or 10 people said something about it in PA, instead of just Mosh, or no one else! See the problem all of a sudden? ... your music definition just became ... "might makes right".
Edited by moshkito - April 01 2013 at 15:23
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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