Is classic prog plagued by bad ending tracks? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

Author

Message

Topic Search

Topic Options

Snow Dog

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995

Topic: Is classic prog plagued by bad ending tracks?
Posted: June 19 2013 at 08:45

Whose opinion? Who were you addressing?

Edited by Snow Dog - June 19 2013 at 09:03

moshkito

Forum Senior Member

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16165

Posted: June 19 2013 at 08:36

Snow Dog wrote:

moshkito wrote:

The rest of the album I love dearly ... every bit of it.

...

But allowing someone their expression is important ... and there is no such thing as bad ... just because you, or I don't like it ... prog is no more plagued by BAD endings, than Shakespeare or Moliere or Dickens!

So....no discussion is worthwhile then? I disagree that Prog has bad endings any more than other genres but talking about itr and disagreeing with each other isn't a problem.

The discussion is fine with me. The problem is that it was being compared to an imaginary ending that was his opinion ... that was what should be considered an interesting comment, but not necessarily a fact. I'm thinking that he could not see a conformitty in the ending, musically, which made it more difficult to figure out.

Ex: Aphrodite's Child's album was never "discussed" or given a whole lot of expression and direction and explanation during its time, and I, for one, am glad! It was also intentionally blacklisted and hidden because of the cover and its title ... it's like all it was missing was Aleister Crowley's head on the back cover ... see what I mean? ... ohhh but Black Sabbath is ok .... such hippocrisy! I kinda liken this album to ... very simply ... sex, drugs, a little religion, and rock'n'roll ... exactly what we all have and rely on most of the time. How it ends, I think it's funny ... let's just have a party!

All in all, an ending is an ending, and it doesn't matter to me who it belongs to ... but I have, in my life, only complained about one ending in any album ... EVER ... and it was Nektar's Recycled ... when after all that power, and strength ... it was over ... and dead and gone. The band was tired and not able to continue! And it was true for almost 20 years, and though they have picked it up some, in many ways ... they haven't ... the spark is gone. Yes, it's different now, but it is not as meaningful as it was then.

I have a really hard time, for example, comparing the endings of a Beethoven piece, to a Mozart piece. Mozart is very clever ... and often "cute" in his endings ... but Beethoven, at times could be said to think ... that's enough ... close it! And then you hear The rite of Spring", and that ending is great for me.

I love the differences, and how everyone interprets it. But I'm like Ange ... that after the song is over, the piano hits a 5th ... that is not a part of the music ... but it is now! It kinda says it all!

Edited by moshkito - June 19 2013 at 08:51

Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com

richardh

Prog Reviewer

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26171

Posted: June 19 2013 at 01:50

moshkito wrote:

richardh wrote:

^ Which is entirely irrelevant as you are basically stating that any negative thoughts about music are bad. Total poppycock! You are allowed to not like certain tracks and you are allowed to discuss this openly. Moshkito please stop being such an arse thanks.

You're only supporting a socialist/homogenic theme in a board like this ... that everyone has to agree to the idea that this and that is correct! And like most religions, that means you can not do something or other, because it has to be done just like Steve Hackett did it! Or Peter Hammill!

We should know a lot better, and your statement is out of line, and much more negative than mine ... which was trying to stand up for the individuality that Hackett, Hammill and so many others had ... that TODAY, you are not allowing any other composers or bands to do something different and free ... instead of the same thing, because we think such and such.

I stood up for the freedom ... you didn't like that!

Sorry to hear it, because you will kill "progressive" and "prog" with your ideas!

I think you take all this way too seriously. For me 'progressive rock' died along time ago. Out of that realisation I actually enjoy music a lot more and don't spend any time at all worrying about whether it is progressive or not.

Of course a true artist expresses themselves. How on earth could I stop it or even want to stop it? I don't have to like everything they do though and do you believe that discussing it is going to bring the whole house of cards down or something? Moshkito you are an enigma to me Wink

anyway I was a bit grumpy on Monday having had a week off and having to go back to work. Sorry I took it out on you.

Snow Dog

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995

Posted: June 18 2013 at 12:26

refugee wrote:

^Somehow I don’t see Charisma and Tony Stratton-Smith forcing Genesis to record a song they didn’t like. I for one like it, but people are free to disagree. And even if I don’t like Your Own Special Way, I don’t think they deliberately made a bad song. They probably liked it themselves (well, maybe not Hackett, but still he chose it for Genesis Revisited).

Perhaps he was forced to. Wink

refugee

Forum Senior Member

VIP Member

Joined: November 20 2006
Location: Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 7026

Posted: June 18 2013 at 12:20

^Somehow I don’t see Charisma and Tony Stratton-Smith forcing Genesis to record a song they didn’t like. I for one like it, but people are free to disagree. And even if I don’t like Your Own Special Way, I don’t think they deliberately made a bad song. They probably liked it themselves (well, maybe not Hackett, but still he chose it for Genesis Revisited).

He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing
(Peter Hammill)

Snow Dog

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995

Posted: June 18 2013 at 12:04

moshkito wrote:

Snow Dog wrote:

^Pedro. you don't half spout some poppycock.

I for one do not like It, the final song on Lamb and no saying that I should because the artist liked it is going to change that.

The song in there that I can't stand is ... it's all rock'n'roll .... which I think was someone at the recod company forcing them to do something that was easier to listen to in the radio waves.

I highly doubt this is true at all. I just don't accept it.

moshkito wrote:

The rest of the album I love dearly ... every bit of it.

But I won't criticize the whole piece. It is a magnificent piece of music from beginning to the end, and I love it dearly. My ol' friend, Guy Guden, in Santa Barbara, played this album in its entirety -- nonstop -- TWICE, when it first came out ... if that gives you any idea of what he, and many of us, thought!

I don't recall any complaints, either!

So....no discussion is worthwhile then? I disagree that Prog has bad endings any more than other genres but talking about itr and disagreeing with each other isn't a problem.

moshkito

Forum Senior Member

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16165

Posted: June 18 2013 at 11:55

Snow Dog wrote:

^Pedro. you don't half spout some poppycock.

I for one do not like It, the final song on Lamb and no saying that I should because the artist liked it is going to change that.

The song in there that I can't stand is ... it's all rock'n'roll .... which I think was someone at the recod company forcing them to do something that was easier to listen to in the radio waves. The rest of the album I love dearly ... every bit of it.

I don't recall any complaints, either!

Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com

Snow Dog

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995

Posted: June 18 2013 at 11:38

^Pedro. you don't half spout some poppycock.

I for one do not like It, the final song on Lamb and no saying that I should because the artist liked it is going to change that.

Edited by Snow Dog - June 18 2013 at 11:40

moshkito

Forum Senior Member

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16165

Posted: June 18 2013 at 11:30

I stood up for the freedom ... you didn't like that!

Sorry to hear it, because you will kill "progressive" and "prog" with your ideas!

Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com

refugee

Forum Senior Member

VIP Member

Joined: November 20 2006
Location: Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 7026

Posted: June 18 2013 at 11:03

stegor wrote:

I just want to take this back to the beginning for a sec because Isle of Plenty is one of the best endings to one of the best albums ever. The last track should make you want to go back and start it over, and that reprise of Moonlit Knight does just that. And the lyrics are so absurd, but they wrap it all up into the title. Brilliant.

-edit-

I just realized my post just reprised the first post of this thread, just like Isle of Plenty reprises Moonlit Night. Brilliant. Approve

I agree when it comes to Isle of Plenty, but even if the lyrics seem absurd, they do make sense because of the puns on British supermarkets: Safeway, Fine Fare and Tesco, and there’s even a reference to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retailers%27_cooperative

- which explains her discount. A perfect ending.

He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing
(Peter Hammill)

Guldbamsen View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Retired Admin

Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23098

Posted: June 18 2013 at 10:25

So many great ending tracks out there - even among those most people tend to neglect (or despise Tongue

). A thing like Alan's Psychedelic Breakfast fx.

Marmalade.....I like marmalade.

I really do.

Edited by Guldbamsen - June 18 2013 at 10:25

“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams

twosteves

Forum Senior Member

Joined: May 01 2007
Location: NYC/Rhinebeck
Status: Offline
Points: 4070

Posted: June 18 2013 at 10:21

Swedish Prog Mafia wrote:

Everytime I hear 'It' I cry, it's the true essential ending of The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway musically and storywise. Masterpiece!

Have to agree--(not the crying part all the time Big smile

)-- IT is the perfect end ---it pulls all the meaning of The Lamb together--plus that repetitious Hackett guitar riff is just genius.

Swedish Prog Mafia View Drop Down

Forum Newbie

Joined: June 18 2013
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 8

Posted: June 18 2013 at 10:01

Everytime I hear 'It' I cry, it's the true essential ending of The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway musically and storywise. Masterpiece!

chopper

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 19944

Posted: June 17 2013 at 09:08

Horizons wrote:

progbethyname wrote:

Popovych wrote:

I think Genesis should have been switched Musical Box and Fountain of Salmacsis, from beginning to end.

Woohoo. This could work. ;)

Wouldn't ruin the structure or integrity of the album flow. Good ear man.

Are you two implying that Fountain is bad? Or worse than Box? Cuz both are wrong Tongue

I'm not sure what the point of this is ;[??

He's just saying that you could have swapped the order of both tracks, I tend to agree as both have brilliant climatic endings. "Fountain" also has arguably a more dramatic beginning.

progbethyname View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: July 30 2012
Location: HiFi Headmania
Status: Offline
Points: 7750

Posted: June 17 2013 at 08:59

Horizons wrote:

progbethyname wrote:

Popovych wrote:

I think Genesis should have been switched Musical Box and Fountain of Salmacsis, from beginning to end.

Woohoo. This could work. ;)

Wouldn't ruin the structure or integrity of the album flow. Good ear man.

Are you two implying that Fountain is bad? Or worse than Box? Cuz both are wrong Tongue

I'm not sure what the point of this is ;[??

To whom are you referring to? Me? If so, it shall be made clear that neither are bad tracks in any Sense of the word. I'm in agreement with popovych where the musical box would make a good ending track rather than an opener as it is.

That's all. :)

Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣

richardh

Prog Reviewer

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26171

Posted: June 17 2013 at 01:01

^ Which is entirely irrelevant as you are basically stating that any negative thoughts about music are bad. Total poppycock! You are allowed to not like certain tracks and you are allowed to discuss this openly. Moshkito please stop being such an arse thanks.

moshkito

Forum Senior Member

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16165

Posted: June 16 2013 at 10:26

Hi,

It's more plagued by people that do not listen to "music" and people who think that top ten endings is the only thing that anyone out there can create!

There is no such thing! You either take the whole person, or you are just "demanding" that someone kiss your holy feet and garters!

All of us have "defects" ... and in some albums there might be one song you don't like ... but is that person less of an artist or appreciated because they have a club foot?

Please look at the source and the art ... stop worrying about 3 minutes, that supposedly tear it up for you ... and sometimes it was done on purpose, as in the case of Kevin Ayers and Roy Harper ... they put things in the loo and such in there on purpose to prevent you from creating an image of a "star" that is obnoxious, stupid and sick!

PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE. And what they do, they DO. And if they worry about your concern for a bad track, then you know why you are not in their place! Somebody's poop is someone else's gold ... just ask Ozzie!

Edited by moshkito - June 16 2013 at 10:39

Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com

Horizons

Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: January 20 2011
Location: Somewhere Else
Status: Offline
Points: 16952

Posted: June 15 2013 at 23:27

progbethyname wrote:

Popovych wrote:

I think Genesis should have been switched Musical Box and Fountain of Salmacsis, from beginning to end.

Woohoo. This could work. ;)

Wouldn't ruin the structure or integrity of the album flow. Good ear man.

Are you two implying that Fountain is bad? Or worse than Box? Cuz both are wrong Tongue

I'm not sure what the point of this is ;[??

Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.

stegor

Forum Senior Member

Joined: March 23 2013
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline
Points: 1988

Posted: June 15 2013 at 23:18

I just want to take this back to the beginning for a sec because Isle of Plenty is one of the best endings to one of the best albums ever. The last track should make you want to go back and start it over, and that reprise of Moonlit Knight does just that. And the lyrics are so absurd, but they wrap it all up into the title. Brilliant.

-edit-

I just realized my post just reprised the first post of this thread, just like Isle of Plenty reprises Moonlit Night. Brilliant. Approve

Edited by stegor - June 15 2013 at 23:20

richardh

Prog Reviewer

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 26171

Posted: June 15 2013 at 09:30

Fair point about Aphrodite's Child 666 album. Break is a very odd track to finish with and totally out of character with the rest of the album . However All The Seats Were Occupied is actually just a rehash of music on the first 3 sides. The album comes to a natural conclusion on Side 3 and Side 4 is just there to make it into a double. (still one of my favourite albums nevertheless)

SHC - I thought this had been explained? The human body burns likes a candle and sometimes all that is left is the feet