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Is classic prog plagued by bad ending tracks?

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    Posted: June 19 2013 at 08:45
^

Whose opinion? Who were you addressing?


Edited by Snow Dog - June 19 2013 at 09:03
Coldness doth get away with the badness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2013 at 08:36
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

The rest of the album I love dearly ... every bit of it.
... 
But allowing someone their expression is important ... and there is no such thing as bad ... just because you, or I don't like it ... prog is no more plagued by BAD endings, than Shakespeare or Moliere or Dickens!
 
So....no discussion is worthwhile then? I disagree that Prog has bad endings any more than other genres but talking about itr and disagreeing with each other isn't a problem.
 
The discussion is fine with me.  The problem is that it was being compared to an imaginary ending that was his opinion ... that was what should be considered an interesting comment, but not necessarily a fact. I'm thinking that he could not see a conformitty in the ending, musically, which made it more difficult to figure out.
 
Ex: Aphrodite's Child's album was never "discussed" or given a whole lot of expression and direction and explanation during its time, and I, for one, am glad! It was also intentionally blacklisted and hidden because of the cover and its title ... it's like all it was missing was Aleister Crowley's head on the back cover ... see what I mean? ... ohhh but Black Sabbath is ok .... such hippocrisy! I kinda liken this album to ... very simply ... sex, drugs, a little religion, and rock'n'roll ... exactly what we all have and rely on most of the time. How it ends, I think it's funny ... let's just have a party!
 
All in all, an ending is an ending, and it doesn't matter to me who it belongs to ... but I have, in my life, only complained about one ending in any album ... EVER ... and it was Nektar's Recycled ... when after all that power, and strength ... it was over ... and dead and gone. The band was tired and not able to continue! And it was true for almost 20 years, and though they have picked it up some, in many ways ... they haven't ... the spark is gone. Yes, it's different now, but it is not as meaningful as it was then.
 
I have a really hard time, for example, comparing the endings of a Beethoven piece, to a Mozart piece. Mozart is very clever ... and often "cute" in his endings ... but Beethoven, at times could be said to think ... that's enough ... close it! And then you hear The rite of Spring", and that ending is great for me. 
 
I love the differences, and how everyone interprets it. But I'm like Ange ... that after the song is over, the piano hits a 5th ... that is not a part of the music ... but it is now! It kinda says it all!


Edited by moshkito - June 19 2013 at 08:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2013 at 01:50
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

^ Which is entirely irrelevant as you are basically stating that any negative thoughts about music are bad. Total poppycock! You are allowed to not like certain tracks and you are allowed to discuss this openly. Moshkito please stop being such an arse thanks.
 
You're only supporting a socialist/homogenic theme in a board like this ... that everyone has to agree to the idea that this and that is correct! And like most religions, that means you can not do something or other, because it has to be done just like Steve Hackett did it! Or Peter Hammill!
 
We should know a lot better, and your statement is out of line, and much more negative than mine ... which was trying to stand up for the individuality that Hackett, Hammill and so many others had ... that TODAY, you are not allowing any other composers or bands to do something different and free ... instead of the same thing, because we think such and such.
 
I stood up for the freedom ... you didn't like that!
 
Sorry to hear it, because you will kill "progressive" and "prog" with your ideas!

I think you take all this way too seriously. For me 'progressive rock' died along time ago. Out of that realisation I actually enjoy music a lot more and don't spend any time at all worrying about whether it is progressive or not.
Of course a true artist expresses themselves. How on earth could I stop it or even want to stop it? I don't have to like everything they do though and do you believe that discussing it is going to bring the whole house of cards down or something? Moshkito you are an enigma to meWink

anyway I was a bit grumpy on Monday having had a week off and having to go back to work. Sorry I took it out on you.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2013 at 12:26
Originally posted by refugee refugee wrote:

^Somehow I donít see Charisma and Tony Stratton-Smith forcing Genesis to record a song they didnít like. I for one like it, but people are free to disagree. And even if I donít like Your Own Special Way, I donít think they deliberately made a bad song. They probably liked it themselves (well, maybe not Hackett, but still he chose it for Genesis Revisited).

Perhaps he was forced to.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote refugee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2013 at 12:20
^Somehow I donít see Charisma and Tony Stratton-Smith forcing Genesis to record a song they didnít like. I for one like it, but people are free to disagree. And even if I donít like Your Own Special Way, I donít think they deliberately made a bad song. They probably liked it themselves (well, maybe not Hackett, but still he chose it for Genesis Revisited).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2013 at 12:04
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

^Pedro. you don't half spout some poppycock.

I for one do not like It, the final song on Lamb and no saying that I should because the artist liked it is going to change that.
 
The song in there that I can't stand is ... it's all rock'n'roll .... which I think was someone at the recod company forcing them to do something that was easier to listen to in the radio waves. 

I highly doubt this is true at all. I just don't accept it.

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

The rest of the album I love dearly ... every bit of it.
 
But I won't criticize the whole piece. It is a magnificent piece of music from beginning to the end, and I love it dearly. My ol' friend, Guy Guden, in Santa Barbara, played this album in its entirety -- nonstop -- TWICE, when it first came out ... if that gives you any idea of what he, and many of us, thought!
 
I don't recall any complaints, either!
 
But allowing someone their expression is important ... and there is no such thing as bad ... just because you, or I don't like it ... prog is no more plagued by BAD endings, than Shakespeare or Moliere or Dickens!

So....no discussion is worthwhile then? I disagree that Prog has bad endings any more than other genres but talking about itr and disagreeing with each other isn't a problem.
Coldness doth get away with the badness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2013 at 11:55
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

^Pedro. you don't half spout some poppycock.

I for one do not like It, the final song on Lamb and no saying that I should because the artist liked it is going to change that.
 
The song in there that I can't stand is ... it's all rock'n'roll .... which I think was someone at the recod company forcing them to do something that was easier to listen to in the radio waves. The rest of the album I love dearly ... every bit of it.
 
But I won't criticize the whole piece. It is a magnificent piece of music from beginning to the end, and I love it dearly. My ol' friend, Guy Guden, in Santa Barbara, played this album in its entirety -- nonstop -- TWICE, when it first came out ... if that gives you any idea of what he, and many of us, thought!
 
I don't recall any complaints, either!
 
But allowing someone their expression is important ... and there is no such thing as bad ... just because you, or I don't like it ... prog is no more plagued by BAD endings, than Shakespeare or Moliere or Dickens!
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2013 at 11:38
^Pedro. you don't half spout some poppycock.

I for one do not like It, the final song on Lamb and no saying that I should because the artist liked it is going to change that.


Edited by Snow Dog - June 18 2013 at 11:40
Coldness doth get away with the badness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2013 at 11:30
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

^ Which is entirely irrelevant as you are basically stating that any negative thoughts about music are bad. Total poppycock! You are allowed to not like certain tracks and you are allowed to discuss this openly. Moshkito please stop being such an arse thanks.
 
You're only supporting a socialist/homogenic theme in a board like this ... that everyone has to agree to the idea that this and that is correct! And like most religions, that means you can not do something or other, because it has to be done just like Steve Hackett did it! Or Peter Hammill!
 
We should know a lot better, and your statement is out of line, and much more negative than mine ... which was trying to stand up for the individuality that Hackett, Hammill and so many others had ... that TODAY, you are not allowing any other composers or bands to do something different and free ... instead of the same thing, because we think such and such.
 
I stood up for the freedom ... you didn't like that!
 
Sorry to hear it, because you will kill "progressive" and "prog" with your ideas!
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

www.pedrosena.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote refugee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2013 at 11:03
Originally posted by stegor stegor wrote:

I just want to take this back to the beginning for a sec because Isle of Plenty is one of the best endings to one of the best albums ever. The last track should make you want to go back and start it over, and that reprise of Moonlit Knight does just that. And the lyrics are so absurd, but they wrap it all up into the title. Brilliant.

-edit-

I just realized my post just reprised the first post of this thread, just like Isle of Plenty reprises Moonlit Night. Brilliant.Approve

LOL
I agree when it comes to Isle of Plenty, but even if the lyrics seem absurd, they do make sense because of the puns on British supermarkets: Safeway, Fine Fare and Tesco, and thereís even a reference to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retailers%27_cooperative

- which explains her discount. A perfect ending.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2013 at 10:25
So many great ending tracks out there - even among those most people tend to neglect (or despiseTongue). A thing like Alan's Psychedelic Breakfast fx.

Marmalade.....I like marmalade. 
I really do.




Edited by Guldbamsen - June 18 2013 at 10:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote twosteves Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2013 at 10:21
Originally posted by Swedish Prog Mafia Swedish Prog Mafia wrote:

Everytime I hear 'It' I cry, it's the true essential ending of The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway musically and storywise. Masterpiece!

Have to agree--(not the crying part all the timeBig smile)-- IT is the perfect end ---it pulls all the meaning of The Lamb together--plus that repetitious Hackett guitar riff is just genius.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swedish Prog Mafia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2013 at 10:01
Everytime I hear 'It' I cry, it's the true essential ending of The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway musically and storywise. Masterpiece!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2013 at 09:08
Originally posted by Horizons Horizons wrote:

Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by Popovych Popovych wrote:

I think Genesis should have been switched Musical Box and Fountain of Salmacsis, from beginning to end.


Woohoo. This could work. ;)

Wouldn't ruin the structure or integrity of the album flow. Good ear man.


Are you two implying that Fountain is bad? Or worse than Box? Cuz both are wrong Tongue

I'm not sure what the point of this is ;[??
He's just saying that you could have swapped the order of both tracks, I tend to agree as both have brilliant climatic endings. "Fountain" also has arguably a more dramatic beginning.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2013 at 08:59
Originally posted by Horizons Horizons wrote:


Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by Popovych Popovych wrote:

I think Genesis should have been switched Musical Box and Fountain of Salmacsis, from beginning to end.


Woohoo. This could work. ;)

Wouldn't ruin the structure or integrity of the album flow. Good ear man.


Are you two implying that Fountain is bad? Or worse than Box? Cuz both are wrong†Tongue
I'm not sure what the point of this is ;[??


To whom are you referring to? Me? If so, it shall be made clear that neither are bad tracks in any Sense of the word. I'm in agreement with popovych where the musical box would make a good ending track rather than an opener as it is.

That's all. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2013 at 01:01
^ Which is entirely irrelevant as you are basically stating that any negative thoughts about music are bad. Total poppycock! You are allowed to not like certain tracks and you are allowed to discuss this openly. Moshkito please stop being such an arse thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 16 2013 at 10:26
Hi,
 
It's more plagued by people that do not listen to "music" and people who think that top ten endings is the only thing that anyone out there can create!
 
There is no such thing! You either take the whole person, or you are just "demanding" that someone kiss your holy feet and garters!
 
All of us have "defects" ... and in some albums there might be one song you don't like ... but is that person less of an artist or appreciated because they have a club foot?
 
Please look at the source and the art ... stop worrying about 3 minutes, that supposedly tear it up for you ... and sometimes it was done on purpose, as in the case of Kevin Ayers and Roy Harper ... they put things in the loo and such in there on purpose to prevent you from creating an image of a "star" that is obnoxious, stupid and sick!
 
PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE.  And what they do, they DO. And if they worry about your concern for a bad track, then you know why you are not in their place!  Somebody's poop is someone else's gold ... just ask Ozzie!


Edited by moshkito - June 16 2013 at 10:39
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Horizons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 15 2013 at 23:27
Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by Popovych Popovych wrote:

I think Genesis should have been switched Musical Box and Fountain of Salmacsis, from beginning to end.


Woohoo. This could work. ;)

Wouldn't ruin the structure or integrity of the album flow. Good ear man.


Are you two implying that Fountain is bad? Or worse than Box? Cuz both are wrong Tongue

I'm not sure what the point of this is ;[??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stegor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 15 2013 at 23:18
I just want to take this back to the beginning for a sec because Isle of Plenty is one of the best endings to one of the best albums ever. The last track should make you want to go back and start it over, and that reprise of Moonlit Knight does just that. And the lyrics are so absurd, but they wrap it all up into the title. Brilliant.

-edit-

I just realized my post just reprised the first post of this thread, just like Isle of Plenty reprises Moonlit Night. Brilliant.Approve


Edited by stegor - June 15 2013 at 23:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 15 2013 at 09:30
Fair point about Aphrodite's Child 666 album. Break is a very odd track to finish with and totally out of character with the rest of the album . However All The Seats Were Occupied is actually just a rehash of music on the first 3 sides. The album comes to a natural conclusion on Side 3 and Side 4 is just there to make it into a double. (still one of my favourite albums nevertheless)

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