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cstack3 
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
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 Posted: July 03 2013 at 20:46 |
Regarding "Old Steve Howe"...
*sigh* we all grow old, don't we?
The face in the water looks up,
And she shakes her head as if to say
That it's the last time you'll look like today.
Edited by cstack3 - July 03 2013 at 20:46
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progbethyname
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 30 2012
Location: HiFi Headmania
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Points: 7750
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Posted: July 03 2013 at 19:37 |
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It looks like Howe and Keith Richards should have a battle of who looks the oldest. Lol
Man, I have a catcher's mit that looks younger. Wow.
Age is a bitch and we will all experience it hard someday except with regards to prog. It's timeless!!
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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The.Crimson.King
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2013
Location: WA
Status: Offline
Points: 4591
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Posted: July 03 2013 at 19:33 |
 Dean wrote:
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Well, prog has aged well, Steve on the other hand... 
"I think you're using the wrong conditioner on your hair" - Nigel Tufnel
Edited by The.Crimson.King - July 03 2013 at 20:06
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silverpot
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Location: Sweden
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Points: 841
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Posted: July 03 2013 at 19:32 |
Those were the days, before the interweb, when we didn't know the looks of our favorite bands. Somehow I think Yes wouldn' t have achieved the same following as, say Pink Floyd if the rules were the same as today, when you have to have a. pretty face. Gilmour vs Howe - anybody? 
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
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Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
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Points: 64353
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Posted: July 03 2013 at 18:44 |
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^ good god he looks like something from Pirates of the Caribbean, and not as attractive
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
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Posted: July 03 2013 at 16:54 |
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What?
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Hercules
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Near York UK
Status: Offline
Points: 7024
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Posted: July 03 2013 at 16:42 |
"Prog ages well, doesn't it?"
A bloody sight better than me.
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A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
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Points: 11415
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Posted: July 03 2013 at 07:37 |
^ Yeah, but is it Prog?
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chopper
Special Collaborator
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Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
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Points: 19944
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Posted: July 03 2013 at 06:53 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
flat footed Bolivian nostril flute marching band |
I've got their album, it's really good!
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progbethyname
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 30 2012
Location: HiFi Headmania
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Points: 7750
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Posted: July 02 2013 at 23:03 |
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^ wow. Three well thought out, lucid answers. I think all (3) of you make very good points pertaining to the 'age' relevancy in prog and in art for that matter.
My feeling is this. I live in sh*tsville as well when it comes to the open mindedness towards prog. I have given up years ago on that matter. I cannot objectify the art and relevancy behind prog music in general. My friends, acquaintances and even family members make fun of me for what they usually call 'eccentric tastes in music or old man music.' I mean how ridiculous is that!
Anyway. I gave up on people in my life with regards to expressing my love for progressive music. Actually, the other day I was in the car with my brother and his soon to be wife, so I took a stab at filling their ears with some beautiful prog.
I put on IQ's ZERO HOUR. It's a pretty straight forward, yet wonderfully crafted song that even has some brass instruments in it. Why do they say? "well...this sucks!" then my brother put his I pod on and played some country music. Long story short, I lost my sh*t on both of them not because they did not like it, but because of a very stupid comment.
I no longer have a brother. Lol. Just kidding.
Anyway. Prog is either a hit or a big miss with most people, so I have to say that as far as the aging matter is concerned it all depends on the individual. Personally I feel it ages incrediblely well, especially compared with a lot of the new music that is pumped out year after year. I slammed on 'US AND THEM' by pink Floyd and GRENDEL by Marillion and it still as fresh and beautiful as the day I first heard it many years ago.
So what am I to make of all this? Can I say that my music tastes are dated? I think not because what the hell should I compare it to, other than 21st century prog?
Now given my environment by how others have reacted to my music tastes I can say prog is still not old because people, quite simply, don't understand it. That's all.
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Investinmolden
Forum Newbie
Joined: June 29 2013
Location: Poznan, Poland
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Points: 8
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Posted: July 02 2013 at 13:23 |
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Gerinski wrote:
When I think of the music styles which have been prevalent during the last 60 or 70 years, nearly all of them sound dated by now (except the most contemporary ones of course).Swing / Big Band music, Rock & Roll / Rockabilly, Beat, Classic Disco, Punk, New Wave and 80's Synth Pop, Grunge, even the first kinds of Rap... regardless of liking them or not, they all sound dated to me, and I would even dare to say that they sound 'objectively dated'. Prog on the other side does not, for the most part at least. One may like it or not but I hear Fragile, SEBTP, Trilogy, Quadrophenia, Tubular Bells, DSOTM.... the music does not sound dated to me. Some (or even many) early albums may sound dated because of the instrumentation or production, but in most cases the MUSIC itself does not sound dated.
Do you agree? or is it just a subjective illusion because we like it?
The only other genre which does not sound dated to me either is Jazz - Jazz-Rock / Fusion (maybe also because I like it? ). It seems that Jazz has earned some 'eternal' status, as classical music, it may become more or less popular but 'dated' is probably a word that will not be ever applied to it. |
Objective? Yeah, right.  The problem you've addressed needs a seriously heavy attack, but I don't think I have the energy to muster to attack the problem effectively. So I'll just do the best I can.
1) There is this kind of prog that when I ("I", not the general "you") hear an album, a classic like Selling England ... , I would think and say "That sounds really good, but you can't do it today on a live gig anywhere in my town." Why? Because ...
a) I live in S$%thole, Nevada, a place where the lack of open-mindedness and appreciation for wildly unpopular styles like British folk and classical music preside. b) People keep looking for new things. Here's one irritating complaint that I hear from my acquaintances every now and then: "Oh, gosh, this music sounds really old", at which point I want to tell them to go to a different room and perform something unspeakable on themselves. Here's another favorite of mine: "What year is it from?" (Like they need that to make an informed opinion.) c) There is an issue with lyrical content. Do I really have to expand on that one when it comes to prog?
As luck would have it, there is very little amount of prog that I've heard that does not suffer from a single one of those three problems described above.
2) What do you mean by "dated" or "didn't age well"? Something that is unpopular and sounds really lame today? Or something that is just unpopular today? Something that sounds cheesy by our standards? Focus on the language, and only then work your way out into cosmos.
My proposal: to think about music that is songwriting-oriented (something closer to the notion of "lyrical meaning"), not something style-oriented (a lot of musicians today seem to strive to devolve the idea of quality in music ... unbeknownst of that).
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That's great opinion :) I think that you can't be objective talking about art - it's itself very subjective; very personal. But afterall Genesis, ELP, Pink Floyd and whatever prog band from the best selling ones you can find, made a professional deal with large record labels and reamined in rock music genre; this genre can be considered as popular music - at least by record labels boards and producers, because they want to maximize the profit. Even at "our classic" prog rock.Maybe nowdays a "global popular music village" is same as your hometown and dominated by the same public (people in my hometown are the same for sure :). So for the producers "classic" prog music is aging and we won't hear a lot of it in mainstream medias. Which can make us think that something different form mainstream is aged. That's why it's woth to keep to your personal vision of music :)
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humor4u1959
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 02 2013
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Points: 97
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Posted: June 30 2013 at 23:23 |
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Some prog still sounds "classic" as others have said. Some sounds so ridiculous it makes me laugh. And these are some songs even by my favorites. So, it depends on the piece, I suppose.
I think 'Supper's Ready' sounds very dated. Rubber Soul by the Beatles sounds more relevant and less dated than a lot of progressive rock from the 1970's, at least to me.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16163
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Posted: June 29 2013 at 15:43 |
progbethyname wrote:
Chris S wrote:
Classics do not date from any era |
I like this comment. ;)
Some people don't really fully understand the meaning of 'classic'
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Sadly, because it is associated with radio hits ... most of which have absolutely nothing on "progressive" or "prog"! But it's hard to tell folks, even in this board, that prog ages well, and every composer for the past 600 years, was "progressive" from what was available before ... and we will not ever want to study that ... because it would be STUDYING ... and that's not something that a "fan" does ... I guess Beethoven ages well ... let me put on ELO and find out! ... or see if Amadeus Rocks Me still! Damn ... dancing ashes ... can you believe it?
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16163
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Posted: June 29 2013 at 15:35 |
psarros wrote:
agree...and just read this statement on the bottom of the page.
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ALL musical, or artistic scenes, that "age well" will be remembered in one way or another. But I can tell you that almost (Dean will know a name or two I bet!) no one remembers the most famous singer (or seller for these days), on the year 1913), that had all the shows he could possibly want! In the end, there is one thing that is important ... that you are not seeing and the comment that is quoted is not seeing ... and is something that you can EASILY see, and check for yourself in the history of all the arts ... there is a sentiment that carries through the time and the place, that is a part of the art ... and it is VISIBLE. Progressive is an extension of the 1960's, and in my book, I like to say that it was when the dope was taken out some, we found out that we had some arts to work with ... and the immediate combination of all arts ... helped make it an important time and place! Without that ... it all becomes just another band out there in the miriad of bands! Or arts! The hardest part of all, for folks here, is for them to see that KC's early work, ELP, Genesis, and anyone else, and then realize ... oh my gawd ... film is also there ... painting is also there ... the literature is also there and has been for 10 years already ... but too many folks here are centered on the "top ten" mentality and feel offended when told that the rest of the arts IS what makes these things work ... otherwise, you are just another nobody that will not be remembered .... Just look at the history of the arts ... and then look a bit away from your "progressive" monster, and see him as a part of the universe that he tried to create for us! We were ALL there, too ... and it's like saying those folks can be progressive, and we can't ... and that is not only false, it is also insensitive and uneducated! And many of the folks in this board also know and understand ... that a part of that "progressive'ness" is IN THEM ... not just a bunch of folks that we hand pick because of a note, or scale, or jagged riff, or some other silly, bizarre and idiotic idea like an instrument that "prog" uses, that otheres don't!
Edited by moshkito - June 29 2013 at 15:44
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: June 29 2013 at 10:10 |
Gerinski wrote:
When I think of the music styles which have been prevalent during the last 60 or 70 years, nearly all of them sound dated by now (except the most contemporary ones of course).Swing / Big Band music, Rock & Roll / Rockabilly, Beat, Classic Disco, Punk, New Wave and 80's Synth Pop, Grunge, even the first kinds of Rap... regardless of liking them or not, they all sound dated to me, and I would even dare to say that they sound 'objectively dated'. Prog on the other side does not, for the most part at least. One may like it or not but I hear Fragile, SEBTP, Trilogy, Quadrophenia, Tubular Bells, DSOTM.... the music does not sound dated to me. Some (or even many) early albums may sound dated because of the instrumentation or production, but in most cases the MUSIC itself does not sound dated.
Do you agree? or is it just a subjective illusion because we like it?
The only other genre which does not sound dated to me either is Jazz - Jazz-Rock / Fusion (maybe also because I like it? ). It seems that Jazz has earned some 'eternal' status, as classical music, it may become more or less popular but 'dated' is probably a word that will not be ever applied to it. |
It is pretty easy to deduce from this that you like the essential classic rock sound (though I don't know how many classic rock bands you like). Since prog in the 70s shared a lot of the stylistic elements of classic rock, it is not surprising that you would not find prog dated. Those who are not fond of some typical 70s sounds may not agree. I do find some of Banks or Emerson's synth tones cringe worthy. Thought Wakeman, Wright and Minnear were much more restrained in that regard. And since you insist that the music itself in prog is not dated (which would again depend on which specific prog rock bands), I have to ask what exactly makes new wave dated musically speaking. Is it not 80s production itself that is much more annoying than the actual music? The better new wave bands like Police or Talking Heads made some excellent music (and some imo with great production too). There are plenty by the numbers prog rock bands too that people who didn't grow up in the 70s don't really need if they can help it, but probably not the best ones from the 70s. Which is just like most, if not all, genres of music.
A thought that occurred to me: the soaring wall of sound effect and/or the "aaaa" chorus could arguably be a dated 70s musical element. It can sound really great when done well but it was also overused in that decade and I get this feeling only after listening to mostly essential stuff. Wonder how it would have felt if I had had to sit through it all and sift the good from the bad. I mean, not every emotion needs to sound epic and bombastic.
Edited by rogerthat - June 29 2013 at 23:43
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Ambient Hurricanes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 25 2011
Location: internet
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Points: 2549
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Posted: June 28 2013 at 17:07 |
Dayvenkirq wrote:
My proposal: to think about music that is songwriting-oriented (something closer to the notion of "lyrical meaning"), not something style-oriented (a lot of musicians today seem to strive to devolve the idea of quality in music ... unbeknownst of that).
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I love dogs, I've always loved dogs
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5093
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Posted: June 28 2013 at 13:37 |
Well, I know, I dared to mention the word 'objective' when I reckon that anything of this sort is subjective, but I know what I meant, even if it may be hard to convey in words. If we forget about instrumentation and production and focus on music style, composition, arrangements etc, Prog has remained much more stable. The Flower Kings, Steven Wilson, Beardfish or Transatlantic may make music now which in terms of style is not too different from the 70's Prog. Conversely, if you take a 70's Prog classic piece and re-record it today (say for example, Yes' Long Distance Runaround), if you wouldn't know it it would be really hard to pin down when was it composed, some modern Prog is very similar in style, you might say 'it sounds like 70's Prog' as much as you could say 'it sounds as 00's Prog'. On the other hand with other styles, say Rockabilly or 80's New Wave, even a piece composed today will sound as if it was composed at the time those styles were mainstream.
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
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Posted: June 28 2013 at 13:03 |
Gerinski wrote:
When I think of the music styles which have been prevalent during the last 60 or 70 years, nearly all of them sound dated by now (except the most contemporary ones of course).Swing / Big Band music, Rock & Roll / Rockabilly, Beat, Classic Disco, Punk, New Wave and 80's Synth Pop, Grunge, even the first kinds of Rap... regardless of liking them or not, they all sound dated to me, and I would even dare to say that they sound 'objectively dated'. Prog on the other side does not, for the most part at least. One may like it or not but I hear Fragile, SEBTP, Trilogy, Quadrophenia, Tubular Bells, DSOTM.... the music does not sound dated to me. Some (or even many) early albums may sound dated because of the instrumentation or production, but in most cases the MUSIC itself does not sound dated.
Do you agree? or is it just a subjective illusion because we like it?
The only other genre which does not sound dated to me either is Jazz - Jazz-Rock / Fusion (maybe also because I like it? ). It seems that Jazz has earned some 'eternal' status, as classical music, it may become more or less popular but 'dated' is probably a word that will not be ever applied to it. |
Objective? Yeah, right. The problem you've addressed needs a seriously heavy attack, but I don't think I have the energy to muster to attack the problem effectively. So I'll just do the best I can.
1) There is this kind of prog that when I ("I", not the general "you") hear an album, a classic like Selling England ... , I would think and say "That sounds really good, but you can't do it today on a live gig anywhere in my town." Why? Because ...
a) I live in S$%thole, Nevada, a place where the lack of open-mindedness and appreciation for wildly unpopular styles like British folk and classical music preside. b) People keep looking for new things. Here's one irritating complaint that I hear from my acquaintances every now and then: "Oh, gosh, this music sounds really old", at which point I want to tell them to go to a different room and perform something unspeakable on themselves. Here's another favorite of mine: "What year is it from?" (Like they need that to make an informed opinion.) c) There is an issue with lyrical content. Do I really have to expand on that one when it comes to prog?
As luck would have it, there is very little amount of prog that I've heard that does not suffer from a single one of those three problems described above.
2) What do you mean by "dated" or "didn't age well"? Something that is unpopular and sounds really lame today? Or something that is just unpopular today? Something that sounds cheesy by our standards? Focus on the language, and only then work your way out into cosmos.
My proposal: to think about music that is songwriting-oriented (something closer to the notion of "lyrical meaning"), not something style-oriented (a lot of musicians today seem to strive to devolve the idea of quality in music ... unbeknownst of that).
Edited by Dayvenkirq - June 28 2013 at 13:07
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 10970
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Posted: June 28 2013 at 12:21 |
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progbethyname
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 30 2012
Location: HiFi Headmania
Status: Offline
Points: 7750
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Posted: June 28 2013 at 11:23 |
Chris S wrote:
Classics do not date from any era |
I like this comment. ;) Some people don't really fully understand the meaning of 'classic'
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Prog ages well, doesn't it?
