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Topic ClosedHow come Wakeman did not have a Modular Moog
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Points: 12608 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2013 at 22:41
Originally posted by Shutoku Shutoku wrote:


Modular moogs were never really intended for live use, and I believe the tuning stability was even worse than the mini. <span style="line-height: 1.2;">I've read Emerson admit that a big part of the modular being carried around was for show, and he too was doing a fair amount of minimoog work. </span>
The number of minimoogs Wakeman used was for two reasons. 
1. to facillitate smoothly and quickly going from one sound to another. If it is a challenge to quickly change sounds on a mini, it is much more so on a modular.  
2. he did a fair amount of harmony with 2 minimoogs.
Even now his rig usually includes a minimoog, sometimes two (though the second one is usually a minimoog voyager but if there's only 1, it is the model D) Though I think his still massive rigs are at least in part, theatre, as surrounding himself with keyboards is almost as much a part of his image as the capes.
I have pretty much everything he did for solo work and of course with Yes, and I have to say, of his solo work, I really prefer up to Criminal Record much more than anything after, and a great deal of this has to do with the sound choices once he started using more digital stuff. Plus I just plain love the sound of a real hammond, the mellotron, and moog synths. 
I do like the new-agey piano stuff though, and the Wakeman with Wakeman stuff is great!
Recently I've been putting together a performance of 6 wives and King Arthur, and there is a lot more variety in synth patches than one might think when you really sit down and try to reproduce them. Interesting though, almost no use of the wheels (thankfully!!! I won'y have an orchestra with me and so I need both hands on the keys!), and seldom is one VCO used as an LFO. (I don't have a minimoog, so I am using a Korg Mono/poly in it's place)



¿Did you hear the Retro albums Wakeman put out at the late 00's? They were made only with 70's keyboards, you might just as well like them.
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Points: 19 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2013 at 01:50
Modular moogs were never really intended for live use, and I believe the tuning stability was even worse than the mini. I've read Emerson admit that a big part of the modular being carried around was for show, and he too was doing a fair amount of minimoog work. 

The number of minimoogs Wakeman used was for two reasons. 
1. to facillitate smoothly and quickly going from one sound to another. If it is a challenge to quickly change sounds on a mini, it is much more so on a modular.  
2. he did a fair amount of harmony with 2 minimoogs.

Even now his rig usually includes a minimoog, sometimes two (though the second one is usually a minimoog voyager but if there's only 1, it is the model D) Though I think his still massive rigs are at least in part, theatre, as surrounding himself with keyboards is almost as much a part of his image as the capes.

I have pretty much everything he did for solo work and of course with Yes, and I have to say, of his solo work, I really prefer up to Criminal Record much more than anything after, and a great deal of this has to do with the sound choices once he started using more digital stuff. Plus I just plain love the sound of a real hammond, the mellotron, and moog synths. 
I do like the new-agey piano stuff though, and the Wakeman with Wakeman stuff is great!

Recently I've been putting together a performance of 6 wives and King Arthur, and there is a lot more variety in synth patches than one might think when you really sit down and try to reproduce them. Interesting though, almost no use of the wheels (thankfully!!! I won'y have an orchestra with me and so I need both hands on the keys!), and seldom is one VCO used as an LFO. (I don't have a minimoog, so I am using a Korg Mono/poly in it's place)



Edited by Shutoku - August 03 2013 at 01:52
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Points: 1455 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2013 at 15:11
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

He used a real church pipe organ for CTTE, GFTO and Criminal Record, and a portable Mander in the GFTO tour.
Thank you for that clarification.  I had always thought Wakeman had used the Mander since CTTE, not just on the GFTO tour...
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Points: 23098 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2013 at 05:24
Heh if you guys are into Manders, then this is the go-to place: http://mander-organs-forum.invisionzone.com/
Yep, it's a site entirely devoted to Mander organsLOL
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Points: 15916 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2013 at 04:36
Rick is a freaking GOD, even if he did torch one of his M400's (Angry).............
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Points: 14256 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2013 at 03:47
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:

In my opinion, Emerson was a synthesist, fascinated with creating new synth textures and timbres and then integrating them into ELP's sound.  Wakeman was foremost a player, interested in using the available palette of sounds.  The Minimoog was perfect for him as it was the simplified cousin of the modular with the most popular signal paths hard wired inside.  I remember Wakeman causing an outrage in the music press (who already hated prog for being "overblown and pretentious") for stacking several Minimoogs on top of his other keyboards.  I believe he did that to have 3 unique solo synth sounds ready for him without having to mess with twiddling knobs between songs.  In the photo below, he has 3 Minimoogs in his rig:


Love that photo and theres even a Curry Vindaloo hidden underneath the keyboards!
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Points: 5093 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2013 at 03:35
He used a real church pipe organ for CTTE, GFTO and Criminal Record, and a portable Mander in the GFTO tour.
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Points: 1455 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2013 at 00:22
Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

Originally posted by prog4evr prog4evr wrote:

One of the few (the only one?) to use the Mander Pipe Organ in a prog-band setting (that is the instrument used for the organ solo on the title of 'Close to the Edge').  That should offset any non-use of other Moog instruments (besides the Mini-Moog), eh?
I've always assumed the Pipe Organ in CTTE was the 'real deal' (as in a proper Cathedral organ).  He did have some sort of Portative organ he used on 'The Remembering' and 'Criminal Record' - perhaps that was the Mander.....? Still, he has the most incredible Mini-Moog sounds from anyone in the bizz Big smile
The organ used in 'Criminal Record' (and "Parallels" and "Awaken" on 'Going For The One' [GFTO]) was the real-deal:  a Swiss church-organ (as noted on the albums' program notes).  Not so familiar with 'The Remembering,' but Wakeman played the Mander on "Close to the Edge" when I saw them live at the Forum in LA during the GFTO tour in September 1977...
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Points: 15916 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2013 at 00:06
Originally posted by prog4evr prog4evr wrote:

One of the few (the only one?) to use the Mander Pipe Organ in a prog-band setting (that is the instrument used for the organ solo on the title of 'Close to the Edge').  That should offset any non-use of other Moog instruments (besides the Mini-Moog), eh?
I've always assumed the Pipe Organ in CTTE was the 'real deal' (as in a proper Cathedral organ).  He did have some sort of Portative organ he used on 'The Remembering' and 'Criminal Record' - perhaps that was the Mander.....? Still, he has the most incredible Mini-Moog sounds from anyone in the bizz Big smile
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Points: 1455 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2013 at 23:50
One of the few (the only one?) to use the Mander Pipe Organ in a prog-band setting (that is the instrument used for the organ solo on the title of 'Close to the Edge').  That should offset any non-use of other Moog instruments (besides the Mini-Moog), eh?
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Points: 12608 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2013 at 21:16
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Was anyone else hoping for a third Retro like I was? I loved Rick's return to an all-analog format.

I agree, Tom. Rick had a surplus of great sounds in his arsenal.

I gave favourable reviews to both albums so I wouldn't be averse to Rick completing a 'trilogy' as it were.


I think he wanted to do it. The albums apparently didn't sell that well. What the $#%&@ is wrong with people?!

I'm guessing that 'symphonic' sells better when it comes to Rick's music. The Retro albums were actually not retro in style but rather in the use of old instruments to create new music. People really want the 'old' style ... and also perhaps less Ashley HoltWink


Yeah, I was surprised by how fresh and modern (or at least not-70's) those Retro albums sounded. I would be perfectly happy if Wakeman only used those 70's keyboards from now on (well, some piano and churc organ wouldn't hurt either, but those ones are still much older technology).
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Points: 472 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2013 at 19:30
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Just curiosity in case anyone has answers. Rick Wakeman was for many years hailed as one of the world's top keyboard wizards, for sure at his heyday in the first half of the 70's he did not lack financial means (even if he went rather bad at some point afterwards) or potential for sponsorship.
And yet, he seems to have never been attracted to the big modular synths which in principle were the dream of any keyboard freak in the early 70's. No Modular Moog, no ARP 2500 or 2600, no modular PPG... not even a humble EMS Synthi A.


Anybody has ever heard any comments as to how did that come?





I'd say he did pretty darn good without one. Similarly Tony Banks basically only used one synth, ARP Pro-Soloist. (Added the ARP 2600 in the studio).
At least it would have been visually stunning on stage if Wakeman had added a modular to his mega-count of keyboards.

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Points: 4591 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2013 at 15:54
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Was anyone else hoping for a third Retro like I was? I loved Rick's return to an all-analog format.

I agree, Tom. Rick had a surplus of great sounds in his arsenal.

I gave favourable reviews to both albums so I wouldn't be averse to Rick completing a 'trilogy' as it were.


I think he wanted to do it. The albums apparently didn't sell that well. What the $#%&@ is wrong with people?!

I'm guessing that 'symphonic' sells better when it comes to Rick's music. The Retro albums were actually not retro in style but rather in the use of old instruments to create new music. People really want the 'old' style ... and also perhaps less Ashley HoltWink

Frank Zappa had Don Pardo, Alice Cooper had Vincent Price, I'm afraid Ashley Holt will be forever connected with Rick Wakeman  LOL
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Points: 26171 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2013 at 15:46
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Was anyone else hoping for a third Retro like I was? I loved Rick's return to an all-analog format.

I agree, Tom. Rick had a surplus of great sounds in his arsenal.

I gave favourable reviews to both albums so I wouldn't be averse to Rick completing a 'trilogy' as it were.


I think he wanted to do it. The albums apparently didn't sell that well. What the $#%&@ is wrong with people?!

I'm guessing that 'symphonic' sells better when it comes to Rick's music. The Retro albums were actually not retro in style but rather in the use of old instruments to create new music. People really want the 'old' style ... and also perhaps less Ashley HoltWink
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Points: 15007 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2013 at 15:22
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Was anyone else hoping for a third Retro like I was? I loved Rick's return to an all-analog format.

I agree, Tom. Rick had a surplus of great sounds in his arsenal.

I gave favourable reviews to both albums so I wouldn't be averse to Rick completing a 'trilogy' as it were.


I think he wanted to do it. The albums apparently didn't sell that well. What the $#%&@ is wrong with people?!
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Points: 320 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2013 at 13:48
Rick was/is a great player, but his strength was always playing on top of a band, where the band (like Yes) provided the body of the music. Rick gave the music colour, texture, alternative sound and counterpoint with all the various keyboards and often one-handed solos that sparkled and brought life to the music. He was never a player who attempted to carry the solid centre of the band, that was the strength (and perhaps weakness) of Ritchie, and to an extent, Emerson. 
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Points: 26171 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2013 at 00:46
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Was anyone else hoping for a third Retro like I was? I loved Rick's return to an all-analog format.

I agree, Tom. Rick had a surplus of great sounds in his arsenal.

I gave favourable reviews to both albums so I wouldn't be averse to Rick completing a 'trilogy' as it were.
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Points: 2 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2013 at 14:53
Seems I read somewhere that Emerson's modular was patched, at least most of the time, to a configuration VERY similar to what the Mini is hardwired for.  It's just a classic 2 or 3 VCOs set to sawtooth wave, going through the 4-pole LPF, modulated by the envelope generator (triggered by the keyboard), then into the VCA.

I think Emerson had some "preset" modules but I don't know how flexible or successful they were
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Points: 15916 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2013 at 18:28
No minimoogs or mellotrons here, but Rick's 'Silent Nights' album is one of my fave x-over Prog album from the 80's - it's a generally under-appreciated album - it does sound a little tacky on the surface, but I find it has very strong prog substance and it's neatly arranged, and he's got a wonderful band together for the project.  Just thought I'd mention that,
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Points: 15007 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2013 at 06:45
Was anyone else hoping for a third Retro like I was? I loved Rick's return to an all-analog format.

I agree, Tom. Rick had a surplus of great sounds in his arsenal.
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