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How come Wakeman did not have a Modular Moog

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verslibre View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2013 at 15:22
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Was anyone else hoping for a third Retro like I was? I loved Rick's return to an all-analog format.

I agree, Tom. Rick had a surplus of great sounds in his arsenal.

I gave favourable reviews to both albums so I wouldn't be averse to Rick completing a 'trilogy' as it were.


I think he wanted to do it. The albums apparently didn't sell that well. What the $#%&@ is wrong with people?!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2013 at 15:46
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Was anyone else hoping for a third Retro like I was? I loved Rick's return to an all-analog format.

I agree, Tom. Rick had a surplus of great sounds in his arsenal.

I gave favourable reviews to both albums so I wouldn't be averse to Rick completing a 'trilogy' as it were.


I think he wanted to do it. The albums apparently didn't sell that well. What the $#%&@ is wrong with people?!

I'm guessing that 'symphonic' sells better when it comes to Rick's music. The Retro albums were actually not retro in style but rather in the use of old instruments to create new music. People really want the 'old' style ... and also perhaps less Ashley HoltWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The.Crimson.King Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2013 at 15:54
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Was anyone else hoping for a third Retro like I was? I loved Rick's return to an all-analog format.

I agree, Tom. Rick had a surplus of great sounds in his arsenal.

I gave favourable reviews to both albums so I wouldn't be averse to Rick completing a 'trilogy' as it were.


I think he wanted to do it. The albums apparently didn't sell that well. What the $#%&@ is wrong with people?!

I'm guessing that 'symphonic' sells better when it comes to Rick's music. The Retro albums were actually not retro in style but rather in the use of old instruments to create new music. People really want the 'old' style ... and also perhaps less Ashley HoltWink

Frank Zappa had Don Pardo, Alice Cooper had Vincent Price, I'm afraid Ashley Holt will be forever connected with Rick Wakeman  LOL
I'm using the chicken to measure it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rando Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2013 at 19:30
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Just curiosity in case anyone has answers. Rick Wakeman was for many years hailed as one of the world's top keyboard wizards, for sure at his heyday in the first half of the 70's he did not lack financial means (even if he went rather bad at some point afterwards) or potential for sponsorship.
And yet, he seems to have never been attracted to the big modular synths which in principle were the dream of any keyboard freak in the early 70's. No Modular Moog, no ARP 2500 or 2600, no modular PPG... not even a humble EMS Synthi A.


Anybody has ever heard any comments as to how did that come?





I'd say he did pretty darn good without one. Similarly Tony Banks basically only used one synth, ARP Pro-Soloist. (Added the ARP 2600 in the studio).
At least it would have been visually stunning on stage if Wakeman had added a modular to his mega-count of keyboards.

Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2013 at 21:16
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Was anyone else hoping for a third Retro like I was? I loved Rick's return to an all-analog format.

I agree, Tom. Rick had a surplus of great sounds in his arsenal.

I gave favourable reviews to both albums so I wouldn't be averse to Rick completing a 'trilogy' as it were.


I think he wanted to do it. The albums apparently didn't sell that well. What the $#%&@ is wrong with people?!

I'm guessing that 'symphonic' sells better when it comes to Rick's music. The Retro albums were actually not retro in style but rather in the use of old instruments to create new music. People really want the 'old' style ... and also perhaps less Ashley HoltWink


Yeah, I was surprised by how fresh and modern (or at least not-70's) those Retro albums sounded. I would be perfectly happy if Wakeman only used those 70's keyboards from now on (well, some piano and churc organ wouldn't hurt either, but those ones are still much older technology).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote prog4evr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2013 at 23:50
One of the few (the only one?) to use the Mander Pipe Organ in a prog-band setting (that is the instrument used for the organ solo on the title of 'Close to the Edge').  That should offset any non-use of other Moog instruments (besides the Mini-Moog), eh?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2013 at 00:06
Originally posted by prog4evr prog4evr wrote:

One of the few (the only one?) to use the Mander Pipe Organ in a prog-band setting (that is the instrument used for the organ solo on the title of 'Close to the Edge').  That should offset any non-use of other Moog instruments (besides the Mini-Moog), eh?
I've always assumed the Pipe Organ in CTTE was the 'real deal' (as in a proper Cathedral organ).  He did have some sort of Portative organ he used on 'The Remembering' and 'Criminal Record' - perhaps that was the Mander.....? Still, he has the most incredible Mini-Moog sounds from anyone in the bizz Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote prog4evr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2013 at 00:22
Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

Originally posted by prog4evr prog4evr wrote:

One of the few (the only one?) to use the Mander Pipe Organ in a prog-band setting (that is the instrument used for the organ solo on the title of 'Close to the Edge').  That should offset any non-use of other Moog instruments (besides the Mini-Moog), eh?
I've always assumed the Pipe Organ in CTTE was the 'real deal' (as in a proper Cathedral organ).  He did have some sort of Portative organ he used on 'The Remembering' and 'Criminal Record' - perhaps that was the Mander.....? Still, he has the most incredible Mini-Moog sounds from anyone in the bizz Big smile
The organ used in 'Criminal Record' (and "Parallels" and "Awaken" on 'Going For The One' [GFTO]) was the real-deal:  a Swiss church-organ (as noted on the albums' program notes).  Not so familiar with 'The Remembering,' but Wakeman played the Mander on "Close to the Edge" when I saw them live at the Forum in LA during the GFTO tour in September 1977...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2013 at 03:35
He used a real church pipe organ for CTTE, GFTO and Criminal Record, and a portable Mander in the GFTO tour.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AtomicCrimsonRush Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2013 at 03:47
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:

In my opinion, Emerson was a synthesist, fascinated with creating new synth textures and timbres and then integrating them into ELP's sound.  Wakeman was foremost a player, interested in using the available palette of sounds.  The Minimoog was perfect for him as it was the simplified cousin of the modular with the most popular signal paths hard wired inside.  I remember Wakeman causing an outrage in the music press (who already hated prog for being "overblown and pretentious") for stacking several Minimoogs on top of his other keyboards.  I believe he did that to have 3 unique solo synth sounds ready for him without having to mess with twiddling knobs between songs.  In the photo below, he has 3 Minimoogs in his rig:


Love that photo and theres even a Curry Vindaloo hidden underneath the keyboards!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2013 at 04:36
Rick is a freaking GOD, even if he did torch one of his M400's (Angry).............
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2013 at 05:24
Heh if you guys are into Manders, then this is the go-to place: http://mander-organs-forum.invisionzone.com/
Yep, it's a site entirely devoted to Mander organsLOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote prog4evr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2013 at 15:11
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

He used a real church pipe organ for CTTE, GFTO and Criminal Record, and a portable Mander in the GFTO tour.
Thank you for that clarification.  I had always thought Wakeman had used the Mander since CTTE, not just on the GFTO tour...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shutoku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2013 at 01:50
Modular moogs were never really intended for live use, and I believe the tuning stability was even worse than the mini. I've read Emerson admit that a big part of the modular being carried around was for show, and he too was doing a fair amount of minimoog work. 

The number of minimoogs Wakeman used was for two reasons. 
1. to facillitate smoothly and quickly going from one sound to another. If it is a challenge to quickly change sounds on a mini, it is much more so on a modular.  
2. he did a fair amount of harmony with 2 minimoogs.

Even now his rig usually includes a minimoog, sometimes two (though the second one is usually a minimoog voyager but if there's only 1, it is the model D) Though I think his still massive rigs are at least in part, theatre, as surrounding himself with keyboards is almost as much a part of his image as the capes.

I have pretty much everything he did for solo work and of course with Yes, and I have to say, of his solo work, I really prefer up to Criminal Record much more than anything after, and a great deal of this has to do with the sound choices once he started using more digital stuff. Plus I just plain love the sound of a real hammond, the mellotron, and moog synths. 
I do like the new-agey piano stuff though, and the Wakeman with Wakeman stuff is great!

Recently I've been putting together a performance of 6 wives and King Arthur, and there is a lot more variety in synth patches than one might think when you really sit down and try to reproduce them. Interesting though, almost no use of the wheels (thankfully!!! I won'y have an orchestra with me and so I need both hands on the keys!), and seldom is one VCO used as an LFO. (I don't have a minimoog, so I am using a Korg Mono/poly in it's place)



Edited by Shutoku - August 03 2013 at 01:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2013 at 22:41
Originally posted by Shutoku Shutoku wrote:


Modular moogs were never really intended for live use, and I believe the tuning stability was even worse than the mini. <span style="line-height: 1.2;">I've read Emerson admit that a big part of the modular being carried around was for show, and he too was doing a fair amount of minimoog work. </span>
The number of minimoogs Wakeman used was for two reasons. 
1. to facillitate smoothly and quickly going from one sound to another. If it is a challenge to quickly change sounds on a mini, it is much more so on a modular.  
2. he did a fair amount of harmony with 2 minimoogs.
Even now his rig usually includes a minimoog, sometimes two (though the second one is usually a minimoog voyager but if there's only 1, it is the model D) Though I think his still massive rigs are at least in part, theatre, as surrounding himself with keyboards is almost as much a part of his image as the capes.
I have pretty much everything he did for solo work and of course with Yes, and I have to say, of his solo work, I really prefer up to Criminal Record much more than anything after, and a great deal of this has to do with the sound choices once he started using more digital stuff. Plus I just plain love the sound of a real hammond, the mellotron, and moog synths. 
I do like the new-agey piano stuff though, and the Wakeman with Wakeman stuff is great!
Recently I've been putting together a performance of 6 wives and King Arthur, and there is a lot more variety in synth patches than one might think when you really sit down and try to reproduce them. Interesting though, almost no use of the wheels (thankfully!!! I won'y have an orchestra with me and so I need both hands on the keys!), and seldom is one VCO used as an LFO. (I don't have a minimoog, so I am using a Korg Mono/poly in it's place)



¿Did you hear the Retro albums Wakeman put out at the late 00's? They were made only with 70's keyboards, you might just as well like them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shutoku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2013 at 03:33
I have both retro albums. I like most of them but there are parts I don't care for as much...not so much because of the sounds but the music itself.
I mean at the end of the day, a great song on a beat up piano is still a great song, and a bad song played on minimoogs and mellotrons is still a bad song. I tend to prefer the analog synths and hammond and mellotron over the digital synth sounds, but that doesn't mean I'll like something just because it uses vintage gear, if the music itself doesn't appeal to me.
Retro 1 especially is one I like more than many of his more recent ones though.

tbh though, he has such a staggering number of albums out, he may have some gems I've not given a proper listen to.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2013 at 05:21
Again, I interrupt this program to bring to you this message - 'Silent Nights' is a GREAT album from this keyboard maestro.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vibrationbaby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2013 at 06:02
I know there was no room to put his beer so he just said f**k it. Emerson couldn't hold a candle to him. I don't think they ever really met.. I would have to agree that Wakeman just couldn't have been bothered. Wakeman even though he didn't finish was trained at The Royal College of Music whereas Emerson learned from his mother. It's funny that when the subject of prog keyboard players comes up Laszlo Benko from Omega is rarely mentioned. What about Rick van der Linden?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2013 at 20:37
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby Vibrationbaby wrote:

I know there was no room to put his beer so he just said f**k it. Emerson couldn't hold a candle to him. I don't think they ever really met.. I would have to agree that Wakeman just couldn't have been bothered. Wakeman even though he didn't finish was trained at The Royal College of Music whereas Emerson learned from his mother. It's funny that when the subject of prog keyboard players comes up Laszlo Benko from Omega is rarely mentioned. What about Rick van der Linden?


Rick van der Linden (R.I.P.) was incredible. He was right up there with those guys, IMO. The only problem was he wasn't British, or like Moraz, didn't play in a British progressive rock band. So he didn't get the same publicity. The first two Trace albums are amazing, IMO. They're rather underrated, and Birds really is one of my favorite prog LPs. Trace was one of a few bands removed from the big UK bands that I was aware of in the '80s. Hell, back then, I didn't know Utopia's first two albums (three, if you like Ra) were prog classics. I thought Utopia was just a goofy pop-rock band.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vibrationbaby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2013 at 20:55
Moraz was Swiss I think and Vangelis turned the job down I think. A Greek guy in Yes? I don't even think Moraz used a moog on Relayer. Have to check that. Rick van der Linden was simply incredible and Trace just like Triumvirat have always been acused of being an ELP copycat band which I never thought was fair. Those first two Trace albums were phenomenal. Ian Mosley's forgotten band. Again I think the modular moog was a roadie's nightmare. That probably would have had something to do with the fact that Wakeman didn't use one. Also he was also he was too busy with all the other sh*t he was playing.
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