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How come Wakeman did not have a Modular Moog

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The.Crimson.King View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The.Crimson.King Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2013 at 23:04
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby Vibrationbaby wrote:

Moraz was Swiss I think and Vangelis turned the job down I think. A Greek guy in Yes? I don't even think Moraz used a moog on Relayer. Have to check that. Rick van der Linden was simply incredible and Trace just like Triumvirat have always been acused of being an ELP copycat band which I never thought was fair. Those first two Trace albums were phenomenal. Ian Mosley's forgotten band. Again I think the modular moog was a roadie's nightmare. That probably would have had something to do with the fact that Wakeman didn't use one. Also he was also he was too busy with all the other sh*t he was playing.

I believe Moraz was a minimoog guy and his lead synth work on Relayer reflects that.  There's also a live Yes video from their 1975 tour called "Yes Live at Queens Park Rangers Stadium" and he uses one for his lead synth sounds.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Horizons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2013 at 01:03
He couldn't afford it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vibrationbaby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2013 at 01:10
Probably not. but look at all the fake sounds and simulations that you can get out of keyboards today. You don't need a mellotron, Moog or even a Hammond organ. Listen to this. Wha kind of keyboard was used here ?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2013 at 01:36
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby Vibrationbaby wrote:

I know there was no room to put his beer so he just said f**k it. Emerson couldn't hold a candle to him. I don't think they ever really met.. I would have to agree that Wakeman just couldn't have been bothered. Wakeman even though he didn't finish was trained at The Royal College of Music whereas Emerson learned from his mother. It's funny that when the subject of prog keyboard players comes up Laszlo Benko from Omega is rarely mentioned. What about Rick van der Linden?

Three Fates suggests that Emerson could hold a candle to Wakey. Wakeman was generally more fluid whihc was his appeal. Emerson loved the organ more than the piano and tailored his technique around that imo. Both are great although I think Moraz may have been better than  both as I mentioned before as he could cover all basses and seemed to have more interest in jazz than Wakeman. Jurgen Fritz and Eddie Jobson would be the next contenders in my book. Triumvirate first couple of albums were amazingly good (not a fan of anything after that though) while Jobsons work with UK and Curved Air stood out as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vibrationbaby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2013 at 02:22
Emerson was more of a showman which probably would explain why he did not exploit his full potential. Look at what he called his book " Pictures Of An Exhibitionist ". There you go. Great book. I never saw Wakeman with a rotating piano just a lot of capes, robes beer and Rolls-Royces. With Emerson it was leather, motorcyclescognac & cocaine. Jurgen Fritz had to make those atrocious albums a La Carte and ( gasp Dead ) Russian Roulette. But like idiots we went out and bought them in the false hope that there might be something left..

Edited by Vibrationbaby - August 07 2013 at 02:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2013 at 09:18
I can't say I actually bought A La Carte and Russian Roulette.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vibrationbaby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2013 at 09:37
I did because I'm an idiot. I tried my best to get something out of a la Carte without success.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2013 at 22:13
Originally posted by Shutoku Shutoku wrote:

I have both retro albums. I like most of them but there are parts I don't care for as much...not so much because of the sounds but the music itself.
I mean at the end of the day, a great song on a beat up piano is still a great song, and a bad song played on minimoogs and mellotrons is still a bad song. I tend to prefer the analog synths and hammond and mellotron over the digital synth sounds, but that doesn't mean I'll like something just because it uses vintage gear, if the music itself doesn't appeal to me.
Retro 1 especially is one I like more than many of his more recent ones though.
tbh though, he has such a staggering number of albums out, he may have some gems I've not given a proper listen to.


     Well, I didn't like all the songs from both albums. I guess all songs were OK, but not every one was excellent. However, they did have a few gems, specially "Just Another Day", and "The Temple of Life", which I think are as good as anything he worked in the 70's. As a matter of fact I was somewhat surprised by how un-70's his vintage keyboards sounded in this albums, they actually had a rather modern sound to my ears.

     I don't know which albums you have lisened to, and I certainly haven't got all of his albums, but some albums or songs that I have liked are, well, the whole of "Out There" (that album I did like a lot from beginning to end, but specially "Cathedral in the Sky" is really outstanding); Ice (from Time Machine); some songs from "Phantom Power", though they are somewhat prog, but Ramon Remedio's vocals sound really cool; "Hymn of Hope", "A Little Piece of Heaven / Part of the Crowd", "Why keep hiding / Running Away" (from Can you Hear Me); "The Fighter" (from Fields of Green); some songs from Return to the Center of the Earth; and oh yeah, the live album "Out of the Blue" (and the DVD counterpart "Live in Argentina") are both very nice too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The.Crimson.King Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2013 at 23:47
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Vibrationbaby Vibrationbaby wrote:

I know there was no room to put his beer so he just said f**k it. Emerson couldn't hold a candle to him. I don't think they ever really met.. I would have to agree that Wakeman just couldn't have been bothered. Wakeman even though he didn't finish was trained at The Royal College of Music whereas Emerson learned from his mother. It's funny that when the subject of prog keyboard players comes up Laszlo Benko from Omega is rarely mentioned. What about Rick van der Linden?

Three Fates suggests that Emerson could hold a candle to Wakey. Wakeman was generally more fluid whihc was his appeal. Emerson loved the organ more than the piano and tailored his technique around that imo. Both are great although I think Moraz may have been better than  both as I mentioned before as he could cover all basses and seemed to have more interest in jazz than Wakeman. Jurgen Fritz and Eddie Jobson would be the next contenders in my book. Triumvirate first couple of albums were amazingly good (not a fan of anything after that though) while Jobsons work with UK and Curved Air stood out as well.

I've always been much more partial to organ (Cathedral, Church, Hammond, Farfisa, Vox, whatever) than acoustic piano so Emo has always ranked tops in my book.  I much prefer Moraz over Wakeman as far as Yes material goes, and I loved his work in Refugee.  

Speaking of Moraz, I just read a fascinating interview with him yesterday where he discusses how he loved being in Yes and contrary to the PR story, did not quit but was "asked to leave" to make room for Wakeman's return in '77.  Disturbingly, he also describes never being paid for the 65 date Yes '76 tour and that even though he co-wrote "Parallels", "Going for the One", and "Awaken", he was never credited (or obviously paid).  To his credit, he doesn't seem at all bitter but was just setting the record straight.  I always wondered why he was never part of the Yes Re-Union tour?  Maybe it was his choice not to participate 'cause he figured he wouldn't get paid Wink  

Anyway, you can check it out in his own words here: 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2013 at 03:59
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:


Speaking of Moraz, I just read a fascinating interview with him yesterday where he discusses how he loved being in Yes and contrary to the PR story, did not quit but was "asked to leave" to make room for Wakeman's return in '77.  Disturbingly, he also describes never being paid for the 65 date Yes '76 tour and that even though he co-wrote "Parallels", "Going for the One", and "Awaken", he was never credited (or obviously paid).  To his credit, he doesn't seem at all bitter but was just setting the record straight.  I always wondered why he was never part of the Yes Re-Union tour?  Maybe it was his choice not to participate 'cause he figured he wouldn't get paid Wink  

Anyway, you can check it out in his own words here: 

Moraz sued Yes for that, and he won the trial but got much less money than he was claiming or expecting. Probably it's this episode which distanced them so he never featured again in any of the many Yes reunions, history videos etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The.Crimson.King Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2013 at 10:51
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:


Speaking of Moraz, I just read a fascinating interview with him yesterday where he discusses how he loved being in Yes and contrary to the PR story, did not quit but was "asked to leave" to make room for Wakeman's return in '77.  Disturbingly, he also describes never being paid for the 65 date Yes '76 tour and that even though he co-wrote "Parallels", "Going for the One", and "Awaken", he was never credited (or obviously paid).  To his credit, he doesn't seem at all bitter but was just setting the record straight.  I always wondered why he was never part of the Yes Re-Union tour?  Maybe it was his choice not to participate 'cause he figured he wouldn't get paid Wink  

Anyway, you can check it out in his own words here: 

Moraz sued Yes for that, and he won the trial but got much less money than he was claiming or expecting. Probably it's this episode which distanced them so he never featured again in any of the many Yes reunions, history videos etc.

Interesting...for all their "cosmic good karma vibe" it's sad that Yes (and/or their management) chose to spin their PR machine this way against Moraz.  I obviously don't know for sure, but I can't see any good reason to withhold his 20% of the '76 tour net income or deny his writing credits on GFTO other than greed and spite (which seems all the more misguided since Moraz stepped in and saved their bacon after Wakeman left them high and dry, and Vangelis couldn't straighten out his foreign work visa mess)...and don't forget Moraz was tight enough with Howe and Squire that he handled most of the keyboard duties on their 1st solo albums.  He should have been treated much better. 

The Union tour would have been remarkable with Kaye, Wakeman, & Moraz on stage at the same time Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rando Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2013 at 17:41
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:

The Union tour would have been remarkable with Kaye, Wakeman, & Moraz on stage at the same time Wink


There might not have been enough room on stage for all their keyboards, let alone their egos!
I mean all these guys are great each in their own right and its too bad some of them ended up in lawsuits whether over artistic differences, personality clashes, or credit not given. I can imagine the static atmosphere of being in the studio (or on stage) with Yes. How many times did Wakeman walk out and left the band! I'd love to have been a fly on those walls! More like drooling over all those mellotrons & synths! even if Wakeman didn't have a Modular Moog. Actually I'd love to have seen Wakeman use a Vox Continental or a Farfisa! instead of a Modular! LOL

Ya, the Union tour would have been beyond remarkable with all three of them together on stage. I always wondered how Yes music would have been if  "Vangelis" had joined Yes. But then he's the one that got the Oscar.Star

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The.Crimson.King Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2013 at 17:52
Originally posted by Rando Rando wrote:

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:

The Union tour would have been remarkable with Kaye, Wakeman, & Moraz on stage at the same time Wink


There might not have been enough room on stage for all their keyboards, let alone their egos!

I mean all these guys are great each in their own right and its too bad some of them ended up in lawsuits whether over artistic differences, personality clashes, or credit not given.

Ya, the Union tour would have been beyond remarkable with all three of them together on stage.

Ya, I bet things would've gotten pretty tense between Wakey and Moraz when they began to arrange "Awaken"..."this is my part"..."no, this is my part"..."I wrote it"..."no, I wrote it"...LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vibrationbaby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2013 at 18:16
Originally posted by Rando Rando wrote:

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:

The Union tour would have been remarkable with Kaye, Wakeman, & Moraz on stage at the same time Wink


There might not have been enough room on stage for all their keyboards, let alone their egos!
I mean all these guys are great each in their own right and its too bad some of them ended up in lawsuits whether over artistic differences, personality clashes, or credit not given. I can imagine the static atmosphere of being in the studio (or on stage) with Yes. How many times did Wakeman walk out and left the band! I'd love to have been a fly on those walls! More like drooling over all those mellotrons & synths! even if Wakeman didn't have a Modular Moog. Actually I'd love to have seen Wakeman use a Vox Continental or a Farfisa! instead of a Modular! LOL

Ya, the Union tour would have been beyond remarkable with all three of them together on stage. I always wondered how Yes music would have been if  "Vangelis" had joined Yes. But then he's the one that got the Oscar.Star

Smile

I don't think Yes ever composed a movie score. I liked Vangelis' score for Conquest Of Paradise a lot more than Chariots. Hell I've run a 4 minute mile. Even the movie was sh*t. Just because Roger Bannister was the first guy to be officially recorded as running a 4 minute mile doesn't mean it wasa feat that was not previously achieved. I'm sure a Cheetah holds the land speed record for a living breathing creature. I'd like to see Roger vs  Cheetah. 


Edited by Vibrationbaby - August 08 2013 at 18:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2013 at 19:06
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:

The Union tour would have been remarkable with Kaye, Wakeman, & Moraz on stage at the same time


Instead of one hand on the keyboard and one hand on a beer, Tony could have shown us his two-hands-on-beers, no-hands-on-keyboard technique.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2013 at 19:20
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby Vibrationbaby wrote:

Originally posted by Rando Rando wrote:

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:

The Union tour would have been remarkable with Kaye, Wakeman, & Moraz on stage at the same time Wink


There might not have been enough room on stage for all their keyboards, let alone their egos!
I mean all these guys are great each in their own right and its too bad some of them ended up in lawsuits whether over artistic differences, personality clashes, or credit not given. I can imagine the static atmosphere of being in the studio (or on stage) with Yes. How many times did Wakeman walk out and left the band! I'd love to have been a fly on those walls! More like drooling over all those mellotrons & synths! even if Wakeman didn't have a Modular Moog. Actually I'd love to have seen Wakeman use a Vox Continental or a Farfisa! instead of a Modular! LOL

Ya, the Union tour would have been beyond remarkable with all three of them together on stage. I always wondered how Yes music would have been if  "Vangelis" had joined Yes. But then he's the one that got the Oscar.Star

Smile

I don't think Yes ever composed a movie score. I liked Vangelis' score for Conquest Of Paradise a lot more than Chariots. Hell I've run a 4 minute mile. Even the movie was sh*t. Just because Roger Bannister was the first guy to be officially recorded as running a 4 minute mile doesn't mean it wasa feat that was not previously achieved. I'm sure a Cheetah holds the land speed record for a living breathing creature. I'd like to see Roger vs  Cheetah. 
Ermm 
 
Wakeman has composed a few film scores, as has Patrick Moraz, (which was the point Rando was making). Anderson composed two original songs for the film Biggles... they were as bad as the film.
 
A cheetah cannot run a mile at full speed, It can accelerate from 0 to 60mph in 3 seconds but can only sustain it for a few hundred yards at a time and then has to slow down to cool off and conserve energy, it would cover the remaining distance at around 4mph. (the maths for this is trivial enough  - it would take at least 11 minutes to cover the mile if it were inclined to, however, they seldom are). A human can accelerate from 0-15mph in 3 seconds but can maintain that speed for a mile, also over the first yard or so the human is quicker because it is a biped (naturally unstable so has gravity-assisted initial acceleration). So, if Bannister wasn't an old man in his 90s he would win. But all this is not only completely off topic, it is completely irrelevent as Charriots of Fire was about Harold Abrahams and Eric Lidel winning gold in thew 1928 Olympics, not Roger Bannister and the sub 4-minute mile 26 years later. Nice try but no coconut.
 
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vibrationbaby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2013 at 19:53
It's been a while since I was forced into the theatre to see the movie. I always thought it was about Bannister. I sort of agree with your maths. You're right about the Cheetah. It expends so much energy on that burst of speed that it overheats. That's why like  many predators it lies in wait. The Cheetah will lie in wait on high ground and select the weakest Thompson's Gazelle, Impala, Zebra from a herd  or whatever is available and choose the moment for it's high speed dash. If it f**ks it up then no dinner.

But Yes have never collectively written a film score. Tangerine Dream have done a few so has Emerson on his own.

But I guess I have to do without my coconut. 


Edited by Vibrationbaby - August 08 2013 at 19:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The.Crimson.King Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2013 at 20:05
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:

The Union tour would have been remarkable with Kaye, Wakeman, & Moraz on stage at the same time


Instead of one hand on the keyboard and one hand on a beer, Tony could have shown us his two-hands-on-beers, no-hands-on-keyboard technique.

...and meanwhile Rick was so busy showing off his two fisted Vindaloo technique that it's left to Moraz to actually play the keyboard parts Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2013 at 00:06
^^^^I have to add, I recall Rick's solo keyboard spot on the Onion tour was excellent and MUCH better than what he played on the ABWH tour.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2013 at 01:13
As the subject of Chariots Of Fire has been raised (and the score) I think its just worth mentioning that the original album release has a side long suite that was not part of the score but based on it .. and its excellent. I also think its a decent film although that opening sequence on the beach has now been lampooned almost as much as the head spinning scene in the Exorcist.Smile
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